11 replies to this topic

[J-MAN]

For awhile now I've been considering various methods of massaging more power out of my CRX and after considering various options (turboing my current EW, d16 swap, even bseries), I'm thinking that a hydra would be the best bang for my buck. I've come to this conclusion because my car already has a bunch of EW specific mods (Mugen LSD equipped trans, lightweight flywheel, HD axles, Mugen motor mounts, etc) I could capitalize on those while saving some money versus a full swap and starting from scratch. I've been browsing through past hydra threads and have found alot of info regarding the actual build of the hybrid motor but little regarding the power potential/output. So here's the question, what would be a realistic power goal at the wheels for a NA hydra with the following parts:

EW block overbored to fit p29 pistons, fully balanced bottom end with ARP rod bolts, milled blacktop head (aiming for compression in the 11's, or as high as possible on premium gas), Reground cams (possibly delta 272's), F22 adj cam gears, and of course all the supporting mods to run this combo (OBD-0 wiring conversion on a chipped pm6 with a custom tune). Now I'm aware that I'm simplifying everything that goes into building a motor like this and their are many variables to calculating power. My goal is to put out a 140+whp and still retain some streetability for a fraction of the cost of a b-series swap. But if these goals are unreasonable I'd rather stick with the good ol 100whp EW, save my pennies for a B swap, and sell off my EW goodies when the time comes.

Feel free to chime in with any info or opinions regarding the matter, thanks again RPR.
J-Man

[Madkore]

In theory, your engine would only be 6.25% smaller, so you should make only 6.25% less power than a built 1.6.
Everything else would be the same.

To make 140 whp, you would need about 168 at the flywheel assuming a 20% loss.

Sounds very doable.
What are the RPR guys with built B swaps putting out?

I have the same problem of having a lot of EW parts in my trans that I don't want to give up.

MK

[enduser]

Sell the parts and do a swap!!
If you can go b then better yet.
Older motors are getting harder and harder to find parts for.
Going with a newer series motor also opens up tuning and
support options.
With that being said there are people with built EW motors making good power.

[zakats]

Doable, yes; feasible, no. That is over 113 hp/liter for a daily driver with 80's tech.
Given the power level and displacement you're talking about, that puts you in the realm of a I/H/E/tune B16- no simple task since the B16 has vtec to allow more streetability. I think you'll sacrifice a significant amount of idle/midrange/fuel economy with the necessary cam profiles... but still worthwhile I hope.
Lets keep a few other things in mind here: the b16 has more displacement and a longer stroke with a better r/s. You'll need to turn a lot of revs to make the power you're talking about and the EW bottom end doesn't seem to be as suited for 8.5k rpm longevity as the B16 is.
hatchbox (I think) had a nice little hydra but threw a rod even with his ARP rod bolts @ 7500rpm which probably just a fluke but worth mentioning.

My points here have surely been exaggerated but I made them that way for the sake of argument. I think it is really cool and I want to see it done but if the idea of turbo build is on the table, that has my vote... especially if there is the option for hydra+t!

What are your thoughts on budget here?

[J-MAN]

Thanks for the input guys and you've all made some pretty good points that I hadn't initially noticed. Right now I'd like to keep the budget under/around a grand, I could probably do more but don't want to get too carried away putting a ridiculous amount of money into the car. I do like the idea of a NA honda versus a turboed car, but I know power is much easier to achieve with a properly managed turbo setup. I was hoping that by building solid NA hydra I'd have a simplified way of switching the car over to electronic advance ignition as well as an increased power potential. I understand there would be a trade off on idle and drive ability with 272 cams (Im already running a 272 in my ew and its not all that bad), but my major concern is that if I'll be disappointed by the power output if I built it. Nothing would annoy me more than wasting my time and money for mediocre results.

Realistically I might be able to build a nice "hydra-t" for around that price if I went the route of gtpilot and ran pg6 pistons with a stock blacktop head, then pieced together a junkyard turbo kit (with the proper support mods for fuel, boost, and tune) and get it tuned on turbo edit (obd-0) and easily exceed my power goal for 140whp. The only issue I see with a turbo setup are probable reliability issues (especially after seeing E-Man's issues over the years) and that is a key factor since this will be seeing daily duty.

But the idea of a B swap also sounds appealing strictly for reliabilities sake, but that opens up a whole other can of worms regarding selling parts/having the car down for an extended period of time/fitment which never seems to go right on any bseries swap I've followed. If you really think about it I could probably eek out a Vtec bseries swap for 1500-2000 out of pocket, plus selling off the ew goodies like the Mugen equipped trans and DC header.

So as you guys can clearly see I'm still up in the air with this decision and weighing my options. If anyone has any insight or opinions feel free to drop a line. J-Man

[KSousa]

dont forget also that swapping to a b engine will add around 7-8% more weight to your car. so with that in mind, an ew engine putting out 148 crank hp would have the equivalent power to weight ratio of a b16 with 160 crank hp. now stock b16 dyno at 134-144 wheel hp depending on generation of b16. so taking that same 15-16% loss in power through the drivetrain, a crx with an ew4 with roughly 125-130 wheel hp should be just as fast as one with a stock b16 powerplant.

just a thought.

[zakats]

In theory the numbers may seem that way but I don't think it really works out that way. The B series engine was designed to make more power and does so more reliably with more RPMs, they tend to have a better R/S ratio, and the head flows way more than any EW/significantly more than the DOHC D16- without a lot of work. Sure you can get to 150~hp but what will it cost you and how streetable will it be? 9k rpm in a B16 is fairly simple, 9k with an EW bottom end... hatchbox (IIRC it was him at least) lost a rod cap at 7200 rpm with ARP rod bolts.

[rallyxcrx]

Any body know, or can even guess what HP gain you could make , just by doing a hydra swap on an EW? Dave

[KSousa]

without adding the d16 pistons I would say maybe 8-10 hp. add the p29 pistons and you would probably see an additional 8-10 hp. that would bring the hydra to roughly 108-112 hp. still not as much as a d16 swap would produce (slightly less displacement), but you will have the lighter weight ew block and trans.

[cbstdscott]

The EW is a damn good engine with an ideal rod ratio... but it is hampered by restrictions on the intake side of the head. Slap on a set of side drafts, a better cam, modern ignition and some easy head machine work and you will be in the range of 140-150 hp with a light engine.

[zakats]

I recall it being ~1.56, is that correct? I can't remember the rod length at the moment.

[ballade]

My B16 runs 170hp - stock at the flywheel
I run a small light weight battery, half rad, a 8lb flywheel.
My car actually weighs less with the B16 compared to the ZC (go figure)
The weight isn't a big issue on the street. However the car does handle better with the EW.

Sure you might make that power with a turbo EW but it will never be as reliable.

I've had EW's, a ZC and now running a B. I have no regrets. I like all three power plants but the B series really makes these cars special.
with that said the cost is a factor. If you can come across a good deal on a motor and trans this will help.
The mounts and drive shafts will set you back $700
The rest of the swap might be simple if you can find the parts at a good price or free. Just be patient and these parts will pop up.
sell off the "EW goodies" and help offset the cost.