27 replies to this topic

[I Like Dry Toast]

Having run my own '84 CRX in LeMons last I have a few opinions about your project.

BRAKES
Forget about the big brakes. We used the stock brakes (with new or rebuilt parts throughout) and the brakes were the best part of the car. You MUST do three things though:
1) Remove the rock shields behind the rotors
2) Route cool air from the front pf the car to the center of the rotors with some kind of duct material.
3) Use real racing pads. Not OEM replacement, not performance, but RACING pads.

Raybestos ST-43 is what we used. They exhibited very little wear at the end of the race. Never experienced any fade. Brakes are an off-budget item so you can spend freely here. Cheap pads get pretty expensive when you have to replace them a lot.

TIRES
We used 215/50-13s last year but Sumitomo doesn't make them any more. And 13s are getting kind of scarce in legal compounds and wider sizes. We are using 205/50-15 Star Specs this year.

[Alkusoittow]

Having run my own '84 CRX in LeMons last I have a few opinions about your project.

BRAKES
Forget about the big brakes. We used the stock brakes (with new or rebuilt parts throughout) and the brakes were the best part of the car. You MUST do three things though:
1) Remove the rock shields behind the rotors
2) Route cool air from the front pf the car to the center of the rotors with some kind of duct material.
3) Use real racing pads. Not OEM replacement, not performance, but RACING pads.

Raybestos ST-43 is what we used. They exhibited very little wear at the end of the race. Never experienced any fade. Brakes are an off-budget item so you can spend freely here. Cheap pads get pretty expensive when you have to replace them a lot.

TIRES
We used 215/50-13s last year but Sumitomo doesn't make them any more. And 13s are getting kind of scarce in legal compounds and wider sizes. We are using 205/50-15 Star Specs this year.

Hey, those are exactly the tires I was looking at buying! What do you think of them? I wasn't sure if I should go for those or get something a little bit better.

Those brakes are hella expensive!! but i guess I could see how that would be better than buying cheap ones over and over...

[I Like Dry Toast]

Hey, those are exactly the tires I was looking at buying! What do you think of them? I wasn't sure if I should go for those or get something a little bit better.

Those brakes are hella expensive!! but i guess I could see how that would be better than buying cheap ones over and over...

I agree they ARE expensive, but they work, they have good modulation and initial bite, and they wear very well. If you bite the bullet and get them, you will not regret it.

Cooling the brakes is just as important as the pad material. You can make what would appear to be some pretty lame looking brakes work pretty well if you can keep them cool.

Think about this: in the SCCA there is a category called "production." These are pretty highly modified cars with lots of compression, lots more carburetor, lots of head work, than stock and fairly well modified suspenions. These cars are awfully ç compared with our cars. And yet the rule for brakes rotors says they have to be the same diameter, thickness and type (solid or vented.) Bad brakes are not an issue in this class because they usew good pads and can keep them pretty cool with ducting and scoops on the front of the car.

Like I said, the brakes were the best part our car last year. All the drivers loved them. Our coolong ducts were 3" dryer vent material from Home Depot. We just zip tied tbe openings to the bottom of the spoiler lip because we didn't have time to do anything else. The only problem with the brakes was they would pull a little bit this way or that sometimes. Probably because our ducting was not the best and we had some differences in how the rotors were getting cooled side-to-side. But this was a minor problem. The brakes were amazingly fade-free.

[I Like Dry Toast]

Hey, those are exactly the tires I was looking at buying! What do you think of them? I wasn't sure if I should go for those or get something a little bit better.

Those brakes are hella expensive!! but i guess I could see how that would be better than buying cheap ones over and over...

I agree they ARE expensive, but they work, they have good modulation and initial bite, and they wear very well. If you bite the bullet and get them, you will not regret it.

Cooling the brakes is just as important as the pad material. You can make what would appear to be some pretty lame looking brakes work pretty well if you can keep them cool.

Think about this: in the SCCA there is a category called "production." These are pretty highly modified cars with lots of compression, lots more carburetor, lots of head work, than stock and fairly well modified suspenions. These cars are awfully fast compared with our cars. And yet the rule for brakes rotors says they have to be the same diameter, thickness and type (solid or vented.) Bad brakes are not an issue in this class because they use good pads and can keep them pretty cool with ducting and scoops on the front of the car.

Like I said, the brakes were the best part our car last year. All the drivers loved them. Our cooling ducts were 3" dryer vent material from Home Depot. We just zip tied the openings to the bottom of the spoiler lip because we didn't have time to do anything else. The only problem with the brakes was they would pull a little bit this way or that sometimes. Probably because our ducting was not the best and we had some differences in how the rotors were getting cooled side-to-side. But this was a minor problem. Other than that the brakes were amazingly fade-free.

As far as tires go, given the rules, you aren't going to find much better tires. I understand Falken has some good tires and there are a few others that are good, but above the 190 wear rating there's not much out there that will give you the balance of stickiness and wear that these and the Falkens will. I have them on the car, but I haven't gotten on track with them yet as our track, (MidAmericaMotorplex) is flooded and probably won't dry out in time for the race. So I can't tell you how they work, but if you read the LeMons forum, they get mentioned a lot. The Tire Rack reviewers and Grassroots Motorsports all give them thumbs up for grip and wear.

Can I say one more thing to the board viewers? There are those of you that are probably appalled that people are hacking up these neat little cars to race them in this series. All I can say in my case was that tbe next stop for this car was likely going to be the local U-Pull-It or more likely, the crusher.

We did extensive rust repair and turned the car from an unsafe mess into a safe, fun, fast machine that will be on track for years to come. It did pain me somewhat to strip it out, but the result is worth it. AND I still have most of the interior bits..somewhere...

[CRXfanatic]

wait... why would there be prop valve issues if the piston is the same size?

Yep, should have read NO prop valve issues...

Hmm, tires. Yeah I wish Sumitomo still made their HTR100/200 tires... How about Toyo T1R in 195/55-14 or 195/45-14 on some bmw bottle caps or miata 14x6s?

[rallyxcrx]

I've heard of endurance racers throwing rods with these engines. I have experienced oil pressure loss in corners rally crossing. Accuesump, a baffled oil pan, will cure this problem. If you weld the internal rear sway bar, you probably won't need a rear bar. Dave

[Alkusoittow]

I've heard of endurance racers throwing rods with these engines. I have experienced oil pressure loss in corners rally crossing. Accuesump, a baffled oil pan, will cure this problem. If you weld the internal rear sway bar, you probably won't need a rear bar. Dave

I'll definitely look into getting the baffled oil pan. Great idea, since we're going to be improving handling (and thus lateral G's)

I'm not so sure about welding the internal sway bar vs just getting a cheap bar at the junk yard. Seems to be a better option, and we really need every bit of handling we can get. Every single driver's #1 complaint was handling, so that's where we really want to go the extra mile. ...as much as a lemon's car can go.

[rallyxcrx]

With 2 bars in the rear and none in the front, she still understeers. With 2 bars in the front and a welded internal rear bar, she has some oversteer. Welding the rear bar is shakey, as it turns the rear axle into a torsion tube. You could fab a rear bar up out of a piece of pipe. Dave

[I Like Dry Toast]

I'll definitely look into getting the baffled oil pan. Great idea, since we're going to be improving handling (and thus lateral G's)

I'm not so sure about welding the internal sway bar vs just getting a cheap bar at the junk yard. Seems to be a better option, and we really need every bit of handling we can get. Every single driver's #1 complaint was handling, so that's where we really want to go the extra mile. ...as much as a lemon's car can go.

What tires were you using last year? If the tires were lacking grip, Your handling issues will be about 75% solved with good tires. Our car was fast with minimal work. We added a swap meet sway bar, and bolted up the tires. It handled pretty well. Could be better.

Here's an off-budget item that was opened up due to a rules change this year: Ball joints. Since ball joints can be changed and it does NOT count toward the $500 limit, you can put Integra radius arms on there legally, (gaining some negative camber) and not spend one cent towards the limit.

Get genuine Acura radius arms though. Regular parts store parts are often the same part number between the Acura and the Honda, and often won't give you more negative camber like the real-deal Acura part will.

[Alkusoittow]

Ha... our tires from that last 2 races were USED tires we got from some shady tire shop in the middle-of-nowhere SoCal. All 4 tires didn't match, had varying amounts of tread, and were all old. That's why tires are our #1 priority this year.

Ball joints are a great idea. I have no problem going to the junkyard and pulling whatever parts are necessary. The only issue is I have to rely on my other teammates to do that until my house is done being built. (living in a tiny apartment for the time being) Anyway, then I'll have a 3 car garage and plenty of room for toys!! until I buy an old MR2.

[JEM MotorSports]

- Are there any strut tower bars I can buy, or do I have to make my own?

...in stock all day everyday. Front upper strut braces start at $50 for the generic type (lightspeed replica)
or $180+ for the "bling" Cusco blue version.
http://www.redpepper...mp;#entry377990

we also offer custom made "C" & "B" pillar braces for your car as well.
please read the responses from others who have installed these braces.
I'll let the results speak for themselves.
http://www.redpepper...e...3&hl=pillar

keep us posted....

I've always wanted to run the "LEMONS".

Edited by JEM MotorSports, 06 August 2011 - 03:00 PM.

[I Like Dry Toast]

Ha... our tires from that last 2 races were USED tires we got from some shady tire shop in the middle-of-nowhere SoCal. All 4 tires didn't match, had varying amounts of tread, and were all old. That's why tires are our #1 priority this year.

Ball joints are a great idea. I have no problem going to the junkyard and pulling whatever parts are necessary. The only issue is I have to rely on my other teammates to do that until my house is done being built. (living in a tiny apartment for the time being) Anyway, then I'll have a 3 car garage and plenty of room for toys!! until I buy an old MR2.

Your handling priorities are in order. Tires and wheels are off-budget. Spend more on the tires than the wheels. Use factory-style wheels if you need to. Don't use 13" wheels if you can manage it. You won't find any good tires to fit them. I say that with six 13 x 7 wheels I need to sell. Moving to a 15" wheel would be a pretty good move for some time to come. It seems like this year the selection of legal 13" tires simply disappeared. The only ones I've found are at onlinetires.com. Hercules 205/60-13 with a 440 wear rating. Might be OK on a hot day.

Good tires will compensate somewhat for a crappy suspension. The reverse is not true. However, if you have decent tires, then McGyvering more negative camber into that thing will help a lot. We did not last year and the wear pattern told the story. The left inside was barely touched.

Tom

[I Like Dry Toast]

I've heard of endurance racers throwing rods with these engines. I have experienced oil pressure loss in corners rally crossing. Accuesump, a baffled oil pan, will cure this problem. If you weld the internal rear sway bar, you probably won't need a rear bar. Dave

Just a couple more notes:

Yup, with a stock pan, the one large sustained turn got the oil pressure down to 20 psi. I used 10w40 oil. I would go to 50w oil in the future if it was a hot day. The engine has the original oil pump and when it is cold with 10w30 oil it idles with 60 psi, rev it s bit and it goes to 80 psi. After it is fully warmed up the idle pressure drops into the 40-50psi range. Thicker oil is a good idea. So is using genuine racing oil. Racing oil always has anti-foaming additives. This does just like it says and keeps the engine from sucking in foam instead of a nice big gulp of liquid oil when the oil gets whipped up by the crank.

The Accusump is a great idea if it can be slipped in under budget, or if it is well-hidden. Another good idea is an oil cooler. Although the winter races make this a little less necessary. A junk cooler from an old police car or a Neon SRT-4 or even a simple loop-style cooler (or two, or three, plumbed in parallel) from a Honda or Acura will help keep the oil and bearings cool and prevent the oil from thinning out too much.

Our car was at the Omaha race last year. If you want to see photos of it, go to the LeMons site and look it up.

Tom