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Misfire/stumbling Problems


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#1
wrench rocket

Hi all. I've been doing a lot of searching and reading and tinkering with my car for several months now and still cannot figure this out, any help is appreciated. I have been finding lots of little issues and have been sorting them out with no real change to the symptoms the car is having. I will try not to make this post too huge, and try to make everything pretty clear. This has been a long ordeal, so lots of info, please bear with me :)

 

----87 CRX dx - d15a2 - stock aside from a gutted cat (dumb idea, don't recommend it). Consumes a decent amount of oil due to a poor break-in after a re-ring job. Full head rebuild at the same time.

 

-Problem started while trying to pass up a hill, WOT in 3rd at 50-60 and the power fell off real bad and stopped gaining speed, barely made it around the car I was passing. Car never had any acceleration problems prior to this.

 

-Very rough idle after this happened, found one spark plug in real bad shape, the outer electrode was eaten away very badly, about half gone. I think it was the #3 plug. Other plugs looked real good, maybe a touch dark from oil, but dry and brown.

 

-New plugs sorted the rough idle and I thought the problem was fixed until I tried WOT up a hill again, same problem but more power loss. Two melted plugs, #1 and #4

 

-Found a bad ignition advance diaphragm, and replaced that. Car ran better still, but again lost power under hard acceleration. More new spark plugs needed, and found out that autozone was selling me plugs that were not even close to correct. Correct NGK's held up about a week before #2 and #3 fouling up with oil, wet fouling now. Also replaced cap, rotor, wires and o2 sensor. Tested coil and igniter, seemed okay.

 

-Drove it for a while replacing plugs as needed. Compression was a bit low on #2 and #3. So I replaced head gasket next, which looked to be leaking a little between #2 and #3 also found/fixed a couple vacuum leaks. Compression now pretty even across all cylinders around 180psi (warm engine, throttle open, six compression cycles). Original problem remains, and still black/wet #2 and #3 plugs.

 

-Then the car quit dropping down from 3000rpm idle, eventually found a ton of vacuum leaks and a bad choke opener. Fixed those as well as resealing my carb and intake manifold with rtv. Using rtv on the intake manifold was probably overkill, but I was getting tired of leaks and wanted to be done with it. Now for the first time in my 8-9 years of driving the car, it starts cold and just runs without dying at all. Misfire/stutter continues. #1 and #4 plugs are white now (lean mix?)

 

-Found out Haynes manual tells how to set ignition timing wrong, with the vacuum unhooked. Set that properly and the problem got a bit better, can stay WOT for longer before loss of all power, but problem not fixed.

 

-Igniter died next after tinkering around. Car runs better with a new one, but still dies at WOT. Coil tested again, still seems okay. Oil fouling getting worse, #2 and #3 wet after a day driving to work and back with brand new plugs... Compression still the same, discovered exhaust valve stem seals not seated (error from the shop that rebuilt the head?), pushed those into place and the problem got better again, but still not gone.

 

 

That is where I stand now, hope you are still sticking around, almost done... Couple things I have noticed recently:

1)car stutters noticeably while cruising at a certain throttle position, goes away with any throttle change.

2)misfire happens at higher speeds and in the higher rpms.

-ie- going up a particular hill, moderate to hard throttle in 3rd or 4th at 70-75 produces the problem before I'm up the hill completely.... Same hill, same speed, but 5th gear WOT, make it all the way up without any problems.

-it will misfire in 5th at WOT, but not until I get close to 4000rpm.

 

Somewhere along the line I have checked the pcv valve also, not stuck or gummed up. Alternator a couple years old. I have NOT adjusted the fuel mixture ever. Have NOT replaced fuel filters for several years now. Oh, and not sure if this factors in, engine runs quite cold, maybe 1/8 up on the temp gauge, need a new thermostat I think.

 

I hope I did not forget anything. I feel like the next step is tearing down the block to see what is going on, and doing a rebuild or having a shop do it.... But wanted to ask if anyone has some insight before I resort to that, cause it is very cold and dark after work this time of year, a shop rebuild would cost a lot of $$ and I need to get my other car working a bit better so I can still get to work during the week.

 

Thank you very much for reading, and thank you for any help. sorry for the enormous post. Take care. ;)

 

-Davin


Edited by wrench rocket, 21 November 2013 - 11:38 PM.


#2
rallyxcrx

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Here are a couple of points to ponder. Too much ignition timing advance will blow head gaskets and melt the ceramic off the plugs. Synthetic oil can cause the rings not to seat. You shouldn't have more than 34 degrees total ignition advance, 30 is good for a street car. You can check this with a timing light that has  an adjustment or mark the flywheel with a protractor. You need to idle the engine at about 4000 rpm to check the total advance. Dave    



#3
CRXer87hf

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This could be way off, but it might be a fuel delivery issue that is causing your misfire.  If I'm remembering correctly, that's a carbed engine... Have you cleaned the carb lately?  Replace the fuel filter lately? 


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#4
wrench rocket

Here are a couple of points to ponder. Too much ignition timing advance will blow head gaskets and melt the ceramic off the plugs. Synthetic oil can cause the rings not to seat. You shouldn't have more than 34 degrees total ignition advance, 30 is good for a street car. You can check this with a timing light that has  an adjustment or mark the flywheel with a protractor. You need to idle the engine at about 4000 rpm to check the total advance. Dave    

I have been thinking for a while that using synthetic oil is the culprit for the oil burning, I broke in the new rings with synthetic oil... unaware and misinformed that this was the case. The oil consumption has not seemed to be a problem for the plugs for the 5 years since the new rings were broken in poorly, until all of the sudden. Would this suggest that something else has gone haywire in the bottem end? Maybe broken ring/ringland? Those should show a change in a compression test correct?

 

I will try to get something figured out this weekend for checking my total ignition advance. My timing light has no adjustment. With the ignition timing set per the Honda manual, if my total advance exceeds 34ish degrees, would that indicate that my dizzy is faulty?

 

This could be way off, but it might be a fuel delivery issue that is causing your misfire.  If I'm remembering correctly, that's a carbed engine... Have you cleaned the carb lately?  Replace the fuel filter lately? 

Correct, it is carbed. Aside from running seafoam or B12 through several tanks of gas over the last 6 months, I have not cleaned the carb. I have not replaced either fuel filter for several years, I am putting both fuel filters on my list for this weekend to do.

 

Thanks for the replies, I have a few things on my list for this weekend. Keep the ideas and insight coming please :)



#5
gtpilot

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Cracked diaphragm in the mechanical fuel pump - at high RPM the pump is cavitating and the mixture goes lean?

 

Kirk



#6
wrench rocket

Cracked diaphragm in the mechanical fuel pump - at high RPM the pump is cavitating and the mixture goes lean?

 

Kirk

Thanks for the help. How would I test that, aside from replacing it altoghether?

 

Seems like I need to look more at the fuel side of things. Here is a question I'm just thinking of: Could a lean mixture/misfire amplify the oil foiling to the spark plugs?



#7
gtpilot

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I would pull the fuel pump off an exercise it by hand to see if you hear any odd noises coming from it as a start.  I am sure that if you search the FSM online here it will tell you how to test it.

 

Kirk



#8
wrench rocket

Thanks, i will do that. I just bought the fsm, from what you said it sounded like it might pass the test in the manual, which is from an idle, hiding a possible problem at higher rpms. I appreciate the input. I am doing the filters right now and will then take a look at the pump right after.

Davin


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#9
wrench rocket

Update: To start off with, I am feeling like I might be a serious idiot for not changing the fuel filters right off the bat. It is only day one, still feeling skeptical, but it seems like the stumble/faceplant I was having on acceleration is gone. I took off the fuel pump too, nothing seemed wrong with it, moved smoothly and did not hear any air escaping as I modulated it with any combination of the outlets plugged. I did not flow test it per the manual, somewhat out of laziness and being sick of working on it. I did not look into the total advance of my ignition timing either, but I will do that in the future, out of curiousity. The car is still burning alot of oil, going off of the blue cloud when starting from an idle. If it idles for too long I get a misfire again when starting off, and then goes away shorty after. Haven't looked at the plugs yet, but I'm sure #2 and #3 are oil soaked again. A retry at replacing the rings is looking like a very good idea. Hopefully the issue does not return, thank you all for the help. I hope others can learn from my lack of checking the basics first, I like to over complicate things.

Edited by wrench rocket, 24 November 2013 - 06:55 PM.


#10
bluto

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Have you checked your gas lines?  My 87 CRX HF has been misfiring/stumbling for the past couple of months.  I figured the carb was dirty since it sat for like six months so I kept running SeaFoam through it and using carb cleaner with no prolonged success.  Anyway, I changed out all of the gas lines under the hood with new rubber and it is amazing the difference it made.  Things have smoothed out so much.  Acceleration is smooth and steady.  On the highway it purrs like a kitten.  It still likes to stall at stop signs (whenever it is fully warmed up with my foot off of the gas pedal and clutch in/nuetral), but that is a different issue that I'm trying to chase down.  The misfire/stumble stuff was air creeping in through crap gas lines that had little cracks from drying out over time.  Anyway, if you haven't looked or are still running the original gas lines, maybe check into it as I know it dramatically improved the way my CRX runs.



#11
wrench rocket

Have you checked your gas lines?  My 87 CRX HF has been misfiring/stumbling for the past couple of months.  I figured the carb was dirty since it sat for like six months so I kept running SeaFoam through it and using carb cleaner with no prolonged success.  Anyway, I changed out all of the gas lines under the hood with new rubber and it is amazing the difference it made.  Things have smoothed out so much.  Acceleration is smooth and steady.  On the highway it purrs like a kitten.  It still likes to stall at stop signs (whenever it is fully warmed up with my foot off of the gas pedal and clutch in/nuetral), but that is a different issue that I'm trying to chase down.  The misfire/stumble stuff was air creeping in through crap gas lines that had little cracks from drying out over time.  Anyway, if you haven't looked or are still running the original gas lines, maybe check into it as I know it dramatically improved the way my CRX runs.

Thanks for the input, the fuel lines under the hood of my rex are 4-5 years old. It was fuel filters for me, mainly the rear filter I think, causing fuel starvation. Since replacing both filters, the loss of power I was having under acceleration is gone. I am just dealing with a ton of oil consumption fouling up 2 of my spark plugs now. Trying thicker oil now, and trying to find plugs in a higher heat range.



#12
bluto

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Have you checked the valve seals?  

 

      FEL-PRO Part # SS72632  (at least for an 87 CRX HF)

 

If these go bad.....and they do go bad.....oil leaks down from the top and gets into your cylinders.  It sounds like you've worked the bottom (your rings), but have you worked the top.  The parts are cheap and much, much less work than doing your rings.

 

Does the car smoke worse on start up?  If so, this is a likely problem on your ride.



#13
wrench rocket

FIXED!!!!!!

Replacing the full set of intake/exhaust stem seals had no effect. Auxiliary valve seals were the answer for the oil fouling. The o-rings for the valve holders were beyond toast. I don't have any blue smoke out the tailpipe anymore.

New task is getting everything re-adjusted, my car doesn't know what to do with itself now that all of the plugs are firing properly.

Thanks again for all the help! The input helped me fix even more things that I did not know were wrong.


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