46 replies to this topic

[othrpinkthng]

Hi, first post here...

I did use the search, but I didn't see any with exact same problem my car is having...

Anyway, I have an 86 CRX DX, I'm the original owner (yeah, 23 yrs, and I still love this car)
I have a problem with it stalling at idle.
I started having problems with the carb a couple years ago, so I had it rebuilt and it hasn't ran right ever since.

The first problem was a real bad hesitation around 1500rpm, it would basically fall on it's face, but it never had a problem idling.

I took it back to the shop, they never really got rid of the problem, but it was at least drivable.
Now, it is having a problem with stalling at idle once it's warmed up.
The car starts right up, and it will idle fine for a few minutes, then it will start idling rough, the rpm drops and it dies

Or it will sometimes just die as soon as I put the clutch in at a stop.
I checked the vacuum hoses by spraying starting fluid on them...it didn't reveal a leak.
I changed both fuel filters (real fun having gasoline running up to your armpit...) didn't help.

Something else that I noticed is that when it does stall, it never happens when the fan is running...even when the car is running fully warmed up. I don't know it this is significant, but thought I'd mention it because under normal conditions the fan would be running even after shutting off the engine when fully warmed up.

I also noticed that the secondaries don't kick in even when I have it at a high rpm.

After looking at many pic's on this forum i've noticed that I have WAY more vacuum hoses than I've seen on most of the pictures you guy's have posted here. The car was purchased in Calif (not sure if that makes a difference)
Also, the black box on the firewall...the one with all the vac hoses...I realize it controls the emissions crap, but what is the other black box that has vac hoses going into it? it's on the drivers side towards the front.

I'll go outside and snap a few pic's under the hood (a picture tells a thousand words....)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
othrpinkthng (Dianne)

[kaymo]

OOOO a GIRL in a CRX?

i want to help.. and id sit here and figure something out to tell you, but im too tired. ill come back and give advice i promise. i'm not too bad with fixing these carbd bastards. do you have emissions in your state that require you to retain your vacuum system? if not we're gonna show you how all that black hose mess COMES OFF!!! yay!

james

[othrpinkthng]

OOOO a GIRL in a CRX?
i'm not too bad with fixing these carbd bastards. do you have emissions in your state that require you to retain your vacuum system? if not we're gonna show you how all that black hose mess COMES OFF!!! yay!

james

Unfortunately...in Nevada (at least in Las Vegas) we do have to pass emissions every year when we renew our registrations.
...Which really sux!

I'm going to look into what steps it takes to get a car exempted, 'cause I'd really like to get rid of the rats nest of vac hoses under the hood.
...not to mention getting this car to run right.

:-)

[Captain Regular]

Unfortunately...in Nevada (at least in Las Vegas) we do have to pass emissions every year when we renew our registrations.
...Which really sux!

I'm going to look into what steps it takes to get a car exempted, 'cause I'd really like to get rid of the rats nest of vac hoses under the hood.
...not to mention getting this car to run right.

:-)

A devac is great if you can get away with it. But... if you can't, the vac system can be worked around, enough to get you by inspections, hopefully, anyway. It SOUNDS like the fuel/air mix is becoming too lean as the engine warms up, and the only way the engine temperature can affect the mixture is through that giant vacuum system. Those white plastic things on the intake manifold are thermovalves and they open or close when the engine reaches a certain temp. Sounds like one of them is opening too much and letting in too much air when the system should probably only open up when your RPMs are higher. The good news is that your carb is probably fine. The bad news is that the problem SOUNDS (to me, anyway) like it's in the vacuum system. You could probably compensate for the dying at idle by just adjusting your idle speed screw so you idle a little faster. And/or adjust the idle mixture screw so your mix is a little richer.

[kaymo]

find out if you can get your car exempted, IF NOT we will just have to do a SECRET DEVAC by plugging lines and hooking them back up so they appear to be functioning. i would imagine that a devac on these 20 year old cars would actually DECREASE emissions by making them run better.... but then again i never have had a car emissions tested before

[Captain Regular]

find out if you can get your car exempted, IF NOT we will just have to do a SECRET DEVAC by plugging lines and hooking them back up so they appear to be functioning. i would imagine that a devac on these 20 year old cars would actually DECREASE emissions by making them run better.... but then again i never have had a car emissions tested before

The problem with devac and emissions testing, (from what I understand and have heard about how they test) isn't that it's inefficient. We could have CRXs that get 80 MPG, but still fail the emissions test because they measure the percentage of "nasty" chemicals coming out of the exhaust, not the actual amount. And stuff like the EGR valve and associated vacuum systems eliminates that, often at the expense of overall efficiency. She could try the secret devac, and if it passes, great. But if it doesn't, we've got a MUCH bigger challenge. I would almost say she might be able to have it devacced and put like E85 fuel in the tank. I'm no chemist, but I think while it's not as efficient, it would be a lot cleaner burning and reduce those nasty chemicals. If anybody knows better, feel free to correct me, but the point of actually shooting to pass an emissions test is to make the exhaust as CLEAN as possible, not necessarily make the car as EFFICIENT as possible. It's a horrible system, but even state governments are so sluggish and stupid as to not realize what they're doing wrong, and for all the wrong reasons.

[kaymo]

e85 will burn cleaner- have you read anything to support this or is that just a theory you are pulling out of the air? sorry im just skeptical about things unless i've heard of it or hear some sort of source...

[othrpinkthng]

I haven't been able to find any info about exemption, but I did find out that if my car is registered to an address outside of Las Vegas (Laughlin, Jean, Goodsprings...) they do not require a smog check.

Also...I actually have a year till I have to deal with registration renewal...I just did it.
Amazingly, I got the thing to pass smog (it started to fck up as soon as I drove away...lol)

I have a couple friends outside of town...now I just need to see if they're cool with this idea, and go from there.

Sooooo....I see a de-vac possibly happening the near future

Oh, I was going to mention something else I've noticed...when I open my gas cap I am getting a big Wooosh! It seem to be a lot more than usual.

Is it possible that if my gas cap isn't venting properly, it could starve out the fuel getting to the carb?
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't there have to be some kind of displacement of the fuel being used?
...compensated by the gas cap allowing air into the tank?
I hope that made some kind of sense...

[Captain Regular]

e85 will burn cleaner- have you read anything to support this or is that just a theory you are pulling out of the air? sorry im just skeptical about things unless i've heard of it or hear some sort of source...

Just a thought I pulled out. Ethanol is more of a straightforward chemical to burn than petroleum distilled into gasoline, logic says it should have less stuff in it chemically to convert into whatever the sniffer determines is "bad." And a carburetor (especially with the idle a bit higher to make sure it stays running) will be more adaptable to ...alternative fuels than a fuel injected setup, so it should run well enough long enough to get tested and pass.

As far as your whoosh, I've had the same thing. It could be the tank not venting properly, but on a carb setup, as long as there's gas in the tank, it shouldn't be a problem. You may want to pop the cap every few days to equalize any pressure changes, but the as long as there's fuel in the tank that can make it through the line to the pump on the engine, your carb will be fine. I had a similar problem, and it doesn't SOUND like yours is the same, but it can't hurt to check:
ALL the gas stations around here switched to 10% ethanol within like a week of each other, and about two weeks after that, I was having fuel starvation issues. Keep in mind, this was like 2 months after a full devac and carb rebuild, after which I was running GREAT. Found my rear fuel filter was rust clogged SOLID. That little bit of ethanol was enough to help dissolve about 22 years worth of tank gunk. It's a $5 part, and an easy job (if a little messy) and I've been running fine ever since. Moral of the story is: When you have ethanol in the tank, be sure to keep an eye out of stuff in the fuel, ethanol is a better solvent than gas.

[othrpinkthng]

Ok, I've decided to do the devac.
I have a year until I need to renew my registration (smog check) so...

I checked out this devac thread http://www.redpepper...e...c=36398&hl=

It says I should only do the devac if the car is already running good.
well, I prolly wouldn't be thinking about a devac if it were. So do I need to do the rebuild first?

I'd like to avoid rebuilding it if it really doesn't need it. It was just rebuilt a couple of years ago.
I'm kind of hoping Captain Regular is correct in thinking that there probably isn't anything wrong with my carb, and it's more than likely a vacuum problem.

I'm going to try to post a pic of what I'm starting with (if I can make the attachment work)

...ok, that wont work

[kaymo]

host your pics on a place like Photobucket.com and just link them here with the image icon next to the smiley.

captain- im not sure if it works that way or not. you could be right as far as passing emissions. also could be right about a carb being more adaptable to fuel, but i can tell you right now, for fuel injected cars, ethanol is SHIT. do not use e85 in ANYTHING except flex fuel vehicles. also the 10% ethanol is doing nothing but FUCKING OVER people. ethanol is CHEAPER and gas stations switched to 10% as a filler! it decreases fuel mileage, and power as well. e85 doesnt work in non flex fuel vehicles because it eats up fuel pump seals and such... so what do you think 10% ethanol in your gas is gonna do? EAT YOUR SEALS SLOWLY! causing your car to eventually fail and make you buy a new car. thats their plan. they are killing our cars so we must buy NEW CRAPPY DISPOSABLE CARS. not only that, but using ethanol for fuel INCREASES THE COST OF FOOD. corn. you fill your SUV with e85 and you just used up the amount of corn one person consumes in a year. so you dont eat corn? fine, but guess who does? ANIMALS. if the price of feeding the animals goes up, then the price of eating the animals goes up!!! so you're a vegan? well go to hell we weren't talking to you anyway (sorry icy)

(end of rant, sorry)

pinky- you've got the right writeup there. It does say that you SHOULD have your car running well, but as your issue VERY WELL COULD be the source of your issue, then it would be impossible to accomplish! But, since we know the engine will run (and run quite well) with this vacuum system removed, then all we are doing is eliminating the vacuum system as a possible issue. there is a good chance your engine will not run better after the devac, in which case your carb is at fault. but you arent going to remove the vacuum system and somehow damage something, or cause more problems. (unless you do it wrong)

you say the carb was rebuilt a few years ago. do you know by who and where the parts came from? the carb on my 84 had been obviously tampered with, as some of the screw/bolts were stripped (on the screw part) and since i devac'ed and still had problems, i had to go in and rebuild. i noticed when i got mine apart, the seals that went between the two halves of the carb did not seem to have an appropriate shape to fit in the grooves correctly. my seals i got from honda did however, and in replacing these i fixed my carb problems forever! theres a possibility that whoever rebuilt it did not use Honda parts, and over time the seals that WERE close, no longer are and are allowing issues to occur. remember things are usually broke two times, when no one has EVER touched or replaced or took care of it, or AFTER someone f*cked with it!

i too hope that your issues are in your vacuum system, but be prepared to take that carb apart. i was scared at first, as i didnt want to mess it up and they didnt really teach us anything about carbs in school other than theory and how to switch to FI. but once i dug into it, i realized it wasnt that hard, and the only thing i was doing was replacing little O rings and such. just make sure to do it on a clean surface, and dont let any of the little bits fall off and disappear. i rebuilt mine on a large cardboard box because i didnt want to lose any parts in the mess of my workbench. also, check out my carb rebuild thread for pics of what i was talking about with the seals.

http://www.redpepper...e...c=38676&hl=

[othrpinkthng]

you say the carb was rebuilt a few years ago. do you know by who and where the parts came from?

This is the shop I had do the rebuild http://www.lasvegashondaservice.com/

The owner is a friend of mine.
Basically all of the repairs I've had done on both of my cars were through his shop.
(I bought my Acura from him)

I've never had any issues with the repairs his shop has done for me.
...Except when it came to the carb on my CRX (I'm pretty sure my car is the reason he doesn't do carb repairs anymore)...lol

AFAIK they only use Honda parts.

[kaymo]

ha. its hard around here to find someone who will even work on these cars! ive been turned away by a couple shops who just refused to touch a carb'd honda. dont know why, as they aren't that difficult... they just seem strange to people who are used to workin on chevys and fords. i drove all around greenville before i finally found a guy who ran a honda repair shop that actually worked AT honda in the 80's when the crx came out. he claimed he had built the second sidedraft CRX for Honda of america, honda of japan making the first. he was a smart old guy, but made me swear i wouldnt tell anyone that he worked on my car, or where to find him!!!

[Captain Regular]

Ok, I've decided to do the devac.
I have a year until I need to renew my registration (smog check) so...

I checked out this devac thread http://www.redpepper...e...c=36398&hl=

It says I should only do the devac if the car is already running good.
well, I prolly wouldn't be thinking about a devac if it were. So do I need to do the rebuild first?

I'd like to avoid rebuilding it if it really doesn't need it. It was just rebuilt a couple of years ago.
I'm kind of hoping Captain Regular is correct in thinking that there probably isn't anything wrong with my carb, and it's more than likely a vacuum problem.

I'm going to try to post a pic of what I'm starting with (if I can make the attachment work)

...ok, that wont work

I should clarify what I know, have and done. The carb itself is a simple mechanism. If the passages are cleared out (use a compressor or canned air and a can of carb and choke cleaner) and there aren't any large leaks in the gaskets or O-rings that hold it together (or any cracks in the body, but that would be the death of the carb) it should work. I posted it here somewhere else, but the thing that helped ME the most is understanding HOW the carb does what it does. So, ahem, here is Captain Regular's carburetor theory 101.

The thing runs on vacuum pressure. When you start your car, the pistons move in the engine block, and the valves in the head are timed so that the engine pulls air in through the intake manifold (on top of which is the carburetor) and then pushes that air out the back. This happens due to the turning of the engine, NOT the combustion. If you cut off all fuel and spark plug power, and tried to start your engine, it would turn and turn and it would still be blowing air out the exhaust. Anyway, as the engine forcefully PULLS air down through the intake. It's this movement of air that "powers" the carburetor. The throats (the two large holes that go straight through) have small holes in them. Behind those holes is fuel, just sitting in the bowl (this is where the float is). As air is sucked down through the throats, some of that suction is applied to those holes, and it pulls fuel down into that air stream. As it flows, it vaporizes into something that can be burnt in the engine.
This is where the operation of the throttle and choke come into play. The throttle (the two rotating valves on the bottom of the carb, known as butterfly valves) controls how much suction the throats are exposed to. If they're closed, there is very little airflow through the carb, just a tiny bit in one small hole to keep it idling. As you open it up, more air (and therefore more fuel) is pulled through to power the engine. The choke is that more squarish metal plate on the TOP of the carb, BEFORE the "fuel holes." When the engine is running and pulling air, if you block the airflow but NOT the fuel holes, more of that suction will be diverted to pull fuel, making the engine run richer. This is used for when the engine is cool and the fuel doesn't vaporize as easily, so you throw more down into the engine. Once it's warmed up, the choke opens so you get more air and less fuel, thus running more efficiently.
The only other common component to a carburetor is the float bowl system, which is just a way of measuring demand. When the level of fuel in the bowl (visible in the little glass window) drops to a certain (adjustable) level, the float sinks and opens a little valve, letting more fuel in. It doesn't directly affect how your car runs unless it's not getting enough fuel into the carb and you get symptoms of fuel starvation, or it overflows and you get gas all over the place. It's easily adjustable, though.

Anyway, that's my primer on carburetor theory. I'm pretty wordy, I know, but figuring all this out has helped me GREATLY. Now, the reason I think your carb itself is fine is simply because...your engine runs, and can drive. You just can't idle. The vacuum system changes the parameters of operation at idle, and acceleration and coasting and all other sorts of things. The vacuum system basically tries to automate processes that people are accustomed to having in a computer controlled fuel injection vehicle. This included automatic choke, very lean idling, extra power on hard acceleration and many other "little" things, and it tries to do all this while keeping some very stupid emission controls in place. You take them out, and the carburetor operates in a sort of "unrestricted" mode, it's quite nice.

The only other thing you should look at is a carb rebuild. I know you said you "just" had one done, but they should almost be in line with a regular tune-up. They're kinda frequent, but they're not complicated. You basically take it apart, replace gaskets and O-rings, and shoot cleaner through EVERY hole. And TAKE PICTURES OF EVERYTHING. Mostly for your reference when you put it back together. A carb rebuild can't hurt, but it's not going to fix a problem that's anything OTHER than a leak in a gasket or a clogged passageway.

As a final side-note, I put a manual choke on my carb. It's just a knob on my dash I pull out when I need to start. No more electronic choke system for me. This really only applies if you have trouble starting it or it runs rich after it's warmed up. Whew. That was a lot of typing, and my wife is here wanting to use the computer. So good luck!

[othrpinkthng]

the thing that helped ME the most is understanding HOW the carb does what it does. So, ahem, here is Captain Regular's carburetor theory 101.

Thank you very much! that was without a doubt, the best explanation of what a carburetor does that I have ever heard.

I do actually understand how a carb works, but have never really heard it explained as well as you have.

Although I have never rebuilt a carburetor, I feel quite confident about my mechanical abilities and am actually going to attempt to do the devac and if necessary a carb rebuild myself...and I hope I don't live to regret it

...now if I can wrap my head around gettin' some pics posted here

I'll be back...