19 replies to this topic

[Buford]

Building a street EW4 engine this summer for my son RedSIBaron.

Anybody willing to share setup data with us?

Can do this via e-mail if you racers don't want to give out tricks.

We don't race so there won't be any conflict of interest.

Need to know comp ratio, bearing clerances, piston clearences. ring gap etc. etc.

Thanks

[Doodson]

I am using 87 teg pistons with the head shaved about .020
I only use HONDA bearings , and have gone with all REDS which are loose fit.

[Buford]

Thanks for the info, I hope your season is going good for you.

I guess I'm just to engineering anal not to design up all the clearences for repeatability.

I'll look up the pink brgs and see what the clearences are. What piston clearences are you runnung with the teg pistons??

Who's rings etc.??

Thanks for your input.

[Omega Mugen]

DON"T KNOW WHY THE KEYBOARD IS TYPING IN ALL CAPS< BUT<

I JUST BUILT MY EW THREE WITH Honda bearings (there we go), Beck Arnley rings because the Hondas cost over $120. I got a entire engine gasket set for about $30, which is a real deal on Ebay. The brand is Payen and all the parts are quality "made in Japan." I milled the head 0.010" and block 0.020." I changed the oil pump for $105, but if I were to do it again, I would rebuild the original. I have a core if you're interested. I used Hondabond and Stay-lube reassembly lube when reassembling.

To answer your origninal question, for tolerances (data) go to the service manual link on RPR and look throught the section for cylinder head and engine block. Those will tell you everything you need. You need only follow the service limit, IMO.

Be prepared to spend a lot on bearings. Majestic Honda's prices are for one-half of the bearing, so you'll need two for each main or rod bearing that you are replacing.

[Buford]

Thanks for the info Omega,
Will add this to my data note book.

We'll be building this one correct ( how else can I teach RedSIBaron something!). We have all the factory manuals , even the 87 Integra one. The Issue is we want to be able to buzz this one to 7500 regularly. So do I go to race clearences or high end of the factory specs? Thats why I'd like to hear from some SCCA racers who have to make them live at the top end.

[badpenny]

Omega if you ever need a gasket set let me know. If you ever have to pay over 50 for it the reason why.always $45 let me know. But I can't pick them up on sat or sun.

[gtpilot]

We run these motors beyond your intended range and we only use red bearing - like Doodson. On the HYDRA, that is primarily a street car, we run all reds also.

When you start getting up in revs, the first thing to go is the rod bolts - ARP makes a set for our motors that offer a lot better protection.

We only run Total Seal rings - yes they are more expensive, but they are worth the money. If you use them, make sure you use the correct hone pattern for these rings or they won't seat properly. Also, they have a tendecy to take a little longer to seat as well. I run end gaps of ~0.016".

Kirk

Kirk

[Omega Mugen]

Omega if you ever need a gasket set let me know.  If you ever have to pay over 50 for it the reason why.always $45 let me know.  But I can't pick them up on sat or sun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the offer, but I already have more than I need.

GT- what purpose do the red bearings serve? I guess you are trying to get more oil to the rod and crank or they are for less friction.

[gtpilot]

[/quote]GT- what purpose do the red bearings serve? I guess you are trying to get more oil to the rod and crank or they are for less friction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]

The looser clearance allows for more oil flow across the bearing, allowing it to run a bit cooler.

Kirk

[Buford]

Thanks, Kirk.

We'll have over $3 grand in this engine before we're through. I've built engines all my life, have raced, built Formula 2 and 3 Cosworths in Europe.........Want to get this build right........complete blue print, balance, all ARP bolts, flowed head, manifold etc.

[gtpilot]

Thanks, Kirk.

We'll have over $3 grand in this engine before we're through.  I've built engines all my life, have raced, built Formula 2 and 3 Cosworths in Europe.........Want to get this build right........complete blue print, balance, all ARP bolts, flowed head, manifold etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who is going to do your head work?

Street motor or race motor?

Fuel Injected or carbed?

Emission controls?

Kirk

[Buford]

Kirk,
This is a street/strip motor.

Couldn't get any of the old builders to talk to me about the EW4.
I wanted to get JG to do both the bottom end and head. But can never get the shop to answer the phone or return e-mails. Talked to him once and he was to e-mail me with his personal e-mail addr, so I could tell him what I wanted, but never did.

Was considering PORTFLOW to do the head as they have worked with the major factory programs. If I was going for a national championship, think I might develop a relationship with them.

I talked to GUDE today...They have lots of EW4 experience.....They are doing the head and manifold. Ordered the work today. Will use stock springs, valves and retainers. I was going to use manley with stock springs. We shared many stories (he to grew up in So. Cal. street racing in the 60's like me) and discussed parts. He, like you, has good success with used parts and is suspecious of aftermarket springs for this application. We discussed the whole vibratory Stress Releaving thing. He's an aero-space eng. and has worked for all the majors and even worked for Lockheed on the SR71 project. He likes the honda valve material until you get to the real high revs (10,000 +) and temps

So as It stands right now:
GUDE head and ported stock manifold, head cut .040. Their BullFrog .310/.310 X 252 deg Cam ( May also order a Colt stage 2 cam and try it on the dyno) stock springs, valves and retainers.

I'll do the lower end:
Used crank, cleaned of all burs. threaded plugged oil holes, Shot peaned, indexed, -.010 journals. micro polished, Clevite 77 brgs. .0025" main clearance, .0015 rod clearance. Are these clearances OK? What side/end play clearances should I use?

Rods all forging seam flash removed, Shot peened, reconditioned to factory specs. ARP bolts. (Bill Gude says he always uses new stock bolts well lubed and torqued to the exact factory spec.)

Light flywheel 7-8lbs ( don't know who's yet)

Pistons: ?? thinking stock 87 Integra (+.040 over stock SI bore) or CP pistons.
Rings? any recommendations on these? Piston to wall clearances? Piston pin clearances?

Rotating assy Balanced (including the front pulley, Who makes an after market one of these?)

Block: Decked and parallel to line bore, how much depends on pistons and head chamber cc etc, Bored .040 over, sunen honed with cross hatch deg dependent on rings selected and clearanced for piston. Bores centered, line bored parrallel to deck. ARP bolts.
What else is trick that I should do??

New oil pump, How high of oil pressure should I run? and How thick of a spring shim is this?

Will stay with FI. Will adapt the 87 Teg throttlebody, Will use an 87 Integra ECU, start with SI injectors, then Integra Injectors, then after market injectors as required. Adjustable requlator. Should I use this in series with the stock regulator (which varies press relative to the manif vac) or just use the adj one? I would love to have the time to decode and rewrite the PE7/PG7 Intel 8051 code and put a comm interface chip (RS232) so I could change the fuel curve the way I want it from a lap top. I have all the 8051 development software and hardware programming stuff in my shop now.

The distributor is at Performance Distributors now for curving. Full adv. by 3000. I've machined a micrometer adjuster that fits in the place of the Vac. Adv. unit. So now I can set the initial injector timing seperate from the initial Ign. timing. They are also testing the stock pick up coil with their elect. trigger box and hot coil (up to .060 plug gaps can be used) Will use their spiral wound core 8mm wires. I sent them a sample of the stock wires so the should be the exact lenght as stock. Looking at adapting their billet alum. wire organizers to work with this application.
What total adv range are you using? I'm guessing 36 -38 degrees to start.

Thanks for the input on this.

[Doodson]

I have just switched from Dual Weber Carbs to Stock Fuel Injectoion style.
I have reworked the stock throttle body and will probaly go to an early integra throttle body at a later date. I am going to start with the stock injectors and if they dont have enough squirt with the holley adjustable fuel regulator then I will go with the integra ones.
I just got the MEGASQUIRT computer into the car on Friday night and will be going to the dyno sometime this week to see what kind of numbers I can get, with and without my SCCA regulated Single Inlet Restrictor.

P.S. I only use HONDA bearings

Doodson

[Buford]

Have lots of experience with carbs, mechanical injection. If you can get a tuneable ECU, injection is the way to go. Once I spent 6 solid months getting a carb to work right. Would change emulsion tube designs 2 times/day. Had to machine my own. Webber tuning manual in one hand, lathe in the other. I finally figured out what it wanted and it worked perfectly.

The whole trick in webbers is in the emultion tubes.

Let me know how your new computer works out. Does it do the Ignition as well??

[gtpilot]

I am assuming that you are starting out with the USDM PE7 head? The better choice of heads is the CDM PE3 head - it is virtually identical to the PE7 but it has a better combustion chamber design. The valves are a wee bit smaller but that is easily remidied by using the PE7 valves and porting. If you plan on using that Integra piston the CR is going to be too high to use pump gas and your going to need all the help you can get to prevent detonation. Find a PE3 core and start from there...

I do not recommend turning a crank...period...the nitride hardening is pretty shallow. Also when you start turning the higher revs, the crank flexes quite a bit - you will see it on the center main bearing and the mating surface between the girdle and the block that captures the center main bearing first. Then in the #1 and #5 main bearings. Cutting down the crank only makes the crank weaker.

Run 70-80 PSI with the motor at operating temperature. If I recall, when I ran the wet sump we used two washers ~1mm thick each.

Piston to wall clearance is entirely dependant on the piston used - but I am sure you knew that. For OEM pistons we run OEM clearances. Wrist pin clearances as well...

We have already come up with an adapter plate to the B16 TB onto the EW IM. it works out pretty nice - I'll get some pictures of the modified IM, etc. for you.

We rarely run more than 32 degrees total advance and most of my motors spend their life at about 5000 ft in elevation and only run race fuel...

Don't know why someone has problems with aftermarket springs/retainers/vavles - perhaps they are not using the correct part for the application? I use 5mm valve stem valves, bronze guides, Ti retainers and a varety of different springs...knock on wood - I have never dropped a valve in 13 years of racing these motors.

In racing applications we found the distributor needed a complete rebuild ever season - and a refresh about every six hours when running big plug gaps. These were motors that made between 160-185HP @ 8200-8600 RPM...we have since found that running gaps clsoer to 0.030" provides better spark and flame front control...that of course with a good piston design and a good combustion chamber.

The camshaft you have spec'd is pretty tame, perhaps be design due to your limitation of the stock valve/springs?

I wish we would have had this conversation sooner, I would have offered to build your motor for you. I have several customers that I have built motors for that are spin offs of the development work we have done over the years...one SCCA National Championship and the track record at the Runoffs almost every year we have run it.

Kirk