49 replies to this topic

[DonF]

I thought about ordering blanks and custom fitting some kits for people. Just need to drill the calipers and fix the rotor hub centers.

You don't need to redrill calipers you use a bar pretty much as the adapter with either a narrow or wide mount caliper, just so its not in the same place as the original caliper mounts on the knuckle. You bolt the bar to the knuckle and the caliper to the bar. You vary the thickness in parts of the bar to space the caliper in or out. Alot of people use aluminum but plain old steel works too. Will have to check out the catalog very good tip!

[RexKrazy]

Shortcut...

Brembo Rotor Sizerator

edit....apparently to the England Sizerator....

[DonF]

Shortcut...

Brembo Rotor Sizerator

edit....apparently to the England Sizerator....

Ok did some measuring with http://info.wilwood....itemno=120-6808 its a wide mount dynalite 3/8 disk. (not for this project but handy enough to measure with.) I had an 83 solid front rotor I could play with just to do a look see about spacing.
The wide mount dyna does not work well with the knuckle lugs on the 78-79 Wagon knuckles. Those knuckles have the same caliper mount spacing as 84 Civic. I have the tiny 3rd gen 80's 9" vented rotor and caliper on there now. The similar length in the mounts on the knuckle and the mounts on the caliper pushed the rotor too far up. Perfect for a 12" rotor but not so hot if you want to fit it inside a 13" rim.
So for a 70s civic its ok..... just try a sedan knuckle with narrow mounts and the rotor should drop enough to get into the 10" range. (Ill try it another day). For the 84+ its no go, but a narrow mount Dyna should fit better, but they lowered the points when they did the narrow mount. It will be close in an under 10" disk too http://info.wilwood....itemno=120-6509

I will try and find one cheap on ebay just to mess with and do a few measurements.

I'm not messing with the rotor offset just yet if I cant get the caliper to mount in the 9.5-10" rotor range there is not much point. I was able to tell that even if Wilwood did leave a caliper undrilled in the lugs, where it would mount would require monster wheel offset. You need an adapter to change the caliper position back anyway.

Finally http://info.wilwood....?...&mtType=Lug
These calipers look to be so easiest to adapt inside a 13" wheel and the Honda 84 knuckle or the 78 -79 Wagon with the 83 9"+ solid rotor. The offset and tiny dimensions look to let it drop down in between the knuckle caliper mounts and the offset is really close to what the solid disk needs with a super simple adapter. Problem is I'm thinking this setup would suck even compared to the 89 SI setup because of the solid rotor?? The dual 1.75 Pistons would be an improvement though.

All this was done with a tape measure and eyeballs so don't flame me! Ha -ha Just reporting what I could without wasting a bunch of time.
The radial mount 4 piston caliper might be better for the 84 knuckle/ 78-9 wagon but the adapter would be allot more complicated. I think this is what Fastbrakes did with Jim Hargroves civic...next time I see the car I will ask to snap a picture.

Edited by DonF, 07 July 2009 - 06:56 PM.

[RexKrazy]

Sorry, don't have time to read through that right now. But I will post this as the reason I want a rotor upgrade.

1. slightly larger diameter and thicker rotor means more meat and much better heat absorption ability.

2. If you find the right set you can get brembo's PVT (Pillar Venting Technology) technology for basically the same price as factory.

[DonF]

I would find out where my wilwood caliper of choice might set before choosing a rotor. That rotor even if you could get the caliper close is going to nail even offset 13" wheels. Just because the wilwood dynalites have about 1.75"minimum on the outside part of the rotor. Spent last night searching rotors - lots of ohhhh then naaaaa... Sometimes the simple answers suit me the best. I figured DA calipers would never clear a 13" ... Well with the right offset (flared car) they do! less than a 1/4 clearance in any direction though. Pulled the 15" off my hatch and slid the 13" mag wheels off my 78 right on. Might change my mind because of the tight clearance and caliper bracket spacing but for now that seems like a pretty fair front brake for a 1.3L/ 1400lb Civic.

Edited by DonF, 09 July 2009 - 12:03 PM.

[DonF]

http://i228.photobuc...rlysb1/8194.jpg
Links to a picture is Hargrove's brakes on his 76. Its an Accord spindle though. I will have to ask more details when I see him. $$$$ offset custom rotor, custom hat, fastbrake custom kit, monster offset wheels... if I remember correctly.
Also shows why you cant run a wide lug mount four piston dyna and try to keep it inside a 13" wheel. These are radial mount.
There are two remote possibility's I can see that use the 89 SI Rotor, I am sort of kicking around. It will be a few weeks till I know for sure and still probably wont fit under some 13" wheels.

Edited by DonF, 11 July 2009 - 06:11 AM.

[zackspeed]

Wow that's a nice setup. Had me so confused at first but then I read your post. The accord knuckle is a odd looking unit and cant help but notice how high the steering mount is. Reminds me of the early RSX front suspension when they mounted the steering arm to the strut. Also what tires is he running? They don't look to be cantilever slicks.

[DonF]

Also what tires is he running? They don't look to be cantilever slicks.

Havent a clue....I think they were Goodyear, don't know if they are even 13" now. Anyway it doesn't matter because I was just showing that pic to show show how tight the 4 piston caliper is to the back side of knuckle even with the radial mount caliper. Not a lot of wiggle room.
Putting a deep piston on both sides of the rotor, with a large disk, with a reasonable backspace in off the shelf wheels, is proving that compromises have to be made. Truth is you cant have it all. If you use Honda/Acura calipers you gain some clearance compared to having a caliper piston on both sides of the rotor. There is no way that I could run the 10.3 DA size rotor and offset and add a wilwood caliper and keep it inside my 13"wheels and they are about 0 offset- a 38mm or so would be even worse. So its all about trade offs.

Edited by DonF, 11 July 2009 - 07:57 AM.

[zackspeed]

Yea I see what your saying. That is a very tight fit for that brake setup and a insane amount of offset on the wheel.


Was just thinking about this and it dawned on me that you should try looking at some of the companys that build parts for Mini's. I have seen quite a few with 4 piston calipers inside 13" wheels.

Edited by zackspeed, 11 July 2009 - 09:33 AM.

[DonF]

Was just thinking about this and it dawned on me that you should try looking at some of the companys that build parts for Mini's. I have seen quite a few with 4 piston calipers inside 13" wheels.

Why??? Totally different design, totally different specs = nothing would apply. We have to deal with what Honda gave us (not BMC) and its limitations. Unless you want to start fabing new knuckles out of plate. I dont!
Got to go get off this computer and get some work done in the garage if I'm going to get the Civic done by the new year.

Edited by DonF, 11 July 2009 - 09:47 AM.

[zackspeed]

I was more refering to the aftermarket callipers for them because they are useing rotors close to the same size with the same wheel restriction dictating what will fit.

Something like these and Mini Mania sells them here in the states.
13" 4 pot calipers

diffrent view

I don't think it would be that hard to make these fit and you might be able to get factory Honda rotors to work with it. Just an idea.

Edit: Here is a 7.9" complete setup and as you can see the rotor sizing is going to be very similar to the Honda rotors.
7.9" brake setup

Was also talking with my dad about this and he was saying that AP, Willwood, and Brembo all require a minimum of .080" clearance between the wheel and caliper. This would be on the Spint Cup cars. He was also saying that the new AP radical calipers they use are $2,200 a piece. They are really cool looking though and they don't way anything.

Edited by zackspeed, 11 July 2009 - 10:46 AM.

[DonF]

I was more refering to the aftermarket callipers for them because they are useing rotors close to the same size with the same wheel restriction dictating what will fit.

Something like these and Mini Mania sells them here in the states.
13" 4 pot calipers

diffrent view

I don't think it would be that hard to make these fit and you might be able to get factory Honda rotors to work with it. Just an idea.

Ahh that makes more sense looks like a updated Girling caliper but I'm having a hard time with the price... Thats not in USD! $450-500 per caliper is expensive for me. I will let you buy them and tell us how or if they work?
Wilwoods are about 100-125 and pads are just about every were. I didnt say it couldn't be done, but for that kind of money just call fastbrakes and get some 15" wheels...

Edited by DonF, 11 July 2009 - 10:35 AM.

[Greg Gauper]

Also what tires is he running? They don't look to be cantilever slicks.

Given that you can see "Made in the USA" stamped on the tire, I would assume they are either Goodyear or Hoosier.
Given that Jim normally runs Goodyears, I suspect the are the former and not the latter:
http://gordon.smugmu...404579316_c8HdK

They do look like cantilever slicks, it's just a combination of the camera lighting and the width of the rim that makes it look non-cantilever.

[zackspeed]

Rite and that's why I will be using 15" wheels. Opens up so many options.

Yea the calipers are expensive. About 900 for a pair but they are nice units. Also just found this.
6 pot 13" setup

They also have a neat 2 pot for the rear. Even though they are a bit higher then the Willwood's the amount of un-sprung weight reduction I think would be worth it.

Edit: Man that's a nice car. Yea after looking at more it does seem to be the pic. They do look to be the 8's and not the 9's.

One other thing is the cheaper Willwoods dont have dust boots and or seals and need to be rebuilt quite often. Also was just looking at KAD's site and they have a 10.4 rotor 4 pot caliper setup for 13" wheels too.

Edited by zackspeed, 11 July 2009 - 11:47 AM.

[DonF]

Even though they are a bit higher then the Willwood's the amount of un-sprung weight reduction I think would be worth it.

A bit higher?? Try x5 When or if you get a race car one of these years, cant wait to see you spend your money. Me I'm stuck in the budget pack.