24 replies to this topic

[Dirtcircle86]

A better title may be "am I looking at this correctly?"

I've been drinking some really good ZingZang bloody Mary's but I'll try to stay focused. I used to mess around with air cooled VW's and got to wondering if the torsion bars on these Hondas could be adjusted similarly. I counted the splines on both ends of the Teg and CRX bars and found that the big end has 40 splines (9* per spline) and the small end has 37 splines (9.73* per spline) so I'm thinking they can be adjusted in .73* increments versus the ol' one spline is probably too much method. By the one spline method, 9* (torque tube end) lowers the front by 2.12" and indexing the smaller front end lowers it by 2.29". Some math:

360*/40 = 9*

360*/37 = 9.73* (roughly)

I also did some rough measuring from the center of the torsion bar to the rotor hub flange. I came up with approximately 16.5". It was close to 13.5 from the center of the T-bar to the ball joint but decided to use the rotor flange. More math:

13.5" X 2 X Pi = 84.82

84.82 / 360* = .235 (rounded)

.235 X .73 = .172 (again rounded)

So my theory is the T-bars are adjustable in .17" increments. If I'm missing something, please correct me or if this has been covered on here before, please shoot me now.....

The front (small end) with 37 splines should travel .73* (.17") faster than the larger 40 spline tube end. Correct?

So, looking from the front at the driver's side, if the bar is indexed one spline clockwise in the torque tube and one spline counter clockwise in the radius arm, you lose .73* (.17") in ride height. Is it really that easy? Hopefully, someone more intelligent thanI will please verify. Oh, the passenger side will be a mirror opposite of what I just said.

From factory setting being zero, you can figure what it would lower per spline. 1 spline as I estimated above or; a little more math

2 CW on the rear and 2 CCW on the front = .34" lower
3= .51"
4= .68"
5= .85"
6= 1.02"
7= 1.19"
8= 1.36"
9= 1.53"
10= 1.7"
11= 1.87"
Or 12 each direction would be 2.04" almost 9* (8.76*) or one spline on the big end.
13= 2.21" (9.49*) or close to one spline on the small end of 9.73*

I hope when I'm sober I don't look at this and wonder WTF.... HAHA!

Edit: I already think the ball joint measurement of 13.5" is more accurate. I will do that math also but I'm sure someone is checking already. It would make sense that the radius arc would end where the ball joint pivots since it is inside the tire tread already. I'll do this again tomorrow, sober. It will be .172" vs .211" per .73*

Edited by Dirtcircle86, 27 January 2014 - 05:50 PM.

[Dirtcircle86]

Nothing? Well dang, I thought it was an interesting concept. I'm sure I should have used the torsion bar to ball joint measurement but anyway. Insure it's been discussed on here before, I just can't find it. I thought it was usable.

[soycory]

Sounds interesting to me, but I have never messed with mine so I can offer no help...

[Aren D.]

I can't seem to focus on all the math in your post, anyways I always just used:

Rotate 1 spline for low or 2 splines for slammed or 3 splines for bump stop cruising...

[RETROCRX]

The math seems to make sense........

I think in most cases removing the whole t bar is more difficult than it should be......mine were seized solid at the front.....so I think that's why most people speak in terms of one spline adjustments typically at the rear.

Also there is an index spline in there stopping you from rotating the bars to wherever you want unless you address that first.

[Dirtcircle86]

I kinda figured it was a little tedious for the realized results. When I cleaned up the crossmember, torque tubes, and T-bars I just thought I would count the splines. Again, remembering how rear torsion bars were adjusted "back in the day," I wondered if it would be useful in finding the sweet spot between too high and bottoming out. It basically is a relation between the splines on each end being .73 degrees apart. I notched the "double wide" indexing spline on the front end but marked both with a grinder so I can see where factory was. The back end of the Teg tubes/bars have no indexing marks and my dumbass didn't mark them before driving them out. They were rusted pretty solid but after polishing everything with a wire wheel/brush, I coated everything with marine grease.

My goal is to make it tunable by smaller increments since the drivers side will push down harder than the passenger side. I figure I will set them thesame and see how it sits at race weight (drivers side heavy) then adjust it back level . Just as a starting point. I'm probably over thinking it... I just want more traction on the inside tire when adding power after the apex. I can add from there to see if it helps with traction. Hopefully, it won't lift the LR tire off the ground when I get out! Ha! I'm probably being too tedious.

[chedda_j]

They are tunable by a completely variable amount called the adjustment screw on the bottom.  

[Dirtcircle86]

I know...........   I thought I was on to something there.  I'll file it with Scott's rear steer theory....  

Edited by Dirtcircle86, 29 January 2014 - 01:33 PM.

[rockosocko]

I kinda figured it was a little tedious for the realized results. When I cleaned up the crossmember, torque tubes, and T-bars I just thought I would count the splines. Again, remembering how rear torsion bars were adjusted "back in the day," I wondered if it would be useful in finding the sweet spot between too high and bottoming out. It basically is a relation between the splines on each end being .73 degrees apart. I notched the "double wide" indexing spline on the front end but marked both with a grinder so I can see where factory was. The back end of the Teg tubes/bars have no indexing marks and my dumbass didn't mark them before driving them out. They were rusted pretty solid but after polishing everything with a wire wheel/brush, I coated everything with marine grease.

My goal is to make it tunable by smaller increments since the drivers side will push down harder than the passenger side. I figure I will set them thesame and see how it sits at race weight (drivers side heavy) then adjust it back level . Just as a starting point. I'm probably over thinking it... I just want more traction on the inside tire when adding power after the apex. I can add from there to see if it helps with traction. Hopefully, it won't lift the LR tire off the ground when I get out! Ha! I'm probably being too tedious.

GREAT write up.

 

Just got a set of 24mm's (and will be doing a B-series swap later this fall or..) but til then, it will just have the stock DX block, SI head w/carbs, so the ride will be a slight bit harsh til the weight from the "B" is in there.

 

What I think that I'll add to the thread when I do the swap is to take detailed pics as I go.

NO offense but, I NEED A VISUAL.. When someone says to 'rotate' it (the bar)    ..? Which way? CW or CCW?

and from which end? looking from the front or rear (it's been decades but i think the paint marks are at the front.)

 

ALSO, does one have to adjust less/more if the size of bar goes up/larger? (I need to adjust according to my Eibach rear springs and Tokiko's in the rear) I'd like about a 2.5" drop rolling on 1g teg 14" rims up front.

 

AND, which double size spline does one grind out? OD of bar or ID of adjusting tube? (Im thinkin the front {engine end}) 

 

I really don't want to steal your thunder of this thread, so you tell me if I should add or make my own?

 

Back in the day as a youngin, I never knew of ADHD.. I just thought I was really really good at multi-tasking.... 

The dyslexia doesn't help either. (HEY.. What was that!!) 

 

So, I hope to get on to this fairly sooon..

 

 

Errol

[Dirtcircle86]

HA! I could care less about whos thread is what... I know some are pretty possessive and get butt hurt but this is all good stuff.  I never took pictures of it because I figured it was covered many many times before. 

 

Honestly, if the adjuster is longer in its arc than the spline is in it its arc, then here's no reason to eff with my theory.  It does work becuase the math is there (wish i knew more about math).  I've got wagon bars that may be here today so I start over on my suspension.

 

For a street car, one spline on either end is all you would want to do and still have the adjuster to play with. 

 

The front of the TB's is the largest with the most splines (I think..) and travels slower, per spline, than the back when you turn them.  For indexing purposes imagine the back is fixed.  So, looking from the front of the car, at the driver's side TB, if it is turned CCW, one spline, on both ends, the cooresponding alignment will be .73 degrees different than before.  The radius arm will be indexed higher, thus a lower car.  I did mine at 4 notches higher , on the driver's side, when I was running an open diff, to add weight to the wheel that slips.  So, right off the bat, my driver's side was close to 3/4" higher (heavier) with the adjusters in the same place. 

 

edit; Oh ya, the passenger's side is obviously opposite. 

 

On my rig, I want to be high enough to be just shy of the bump stop when leaving the track.  Riding the bumpstop on the RF will cause serious push.  So using the ziptie on the strut shaft method, I find where it never bottoms, then adjust the TB where I am in the middle of the adjuster's usable adjustment length.  With both adjusters centered, I can cross jack weight either direction.  I know, I'm a little tedious with this kind of crap and the best advise I could give is drop it one spline from factory and adjust to never hit the stops.  Like everybody else said. 

 

I made progressive bump stops too.....  Ya, i'm weird.  I couldn't see paying six or eight bucks for the generic stops at the parts store.  I dont have a clue what sizes they are but I cut like 1 1/2 of 5/8" heater hose, then 1" of maybe 1 1/4" radiator hose, than like 1/2" of 2" radiator hose.  I cant remember the length or sizes but the heater hose was a super tight fit on the shaft and sorta soft.  as the strut contacts another layer or rubber it encounters more resistance... 

 

I got sidetracked.  the splines are obvious when you find them.  I used a hacksaw in the radious arm to slot the double wide spline.  I think the TB has the double wide spline on the back end and I just used a 3x3/32" cutoff wheel to groove it. 

 

If the bar is stiffer, it will not flex as far and should be able to adjust ride lower without hitting the bumpstops. 

 

I have no thunder to steal.  If my nonsense is usable, have at it.  To correct myself, on the race track, there is no such thing as "too tedious." 

 

IF this is too muddy, I can probably say it slower and with more punctuation, and maybe organized.

[Dirtcircle86]

I installed the wagon bar (singular) tonight and realized my feeble old mind was completely dyslexic. The Front of the TB's is the smallest so it's bassackwards of what I said. Maybe. I've been drinking. CCW one notch on the driver's side and the front travels farther than the back so maybe I was wrong before. Or... Anyway, it really does work if you really need it. You probably don't. I did some adjusting to mine tonight and could scarcely keep from rolling on the floor when I stepped back and looked at it. It's seriously comical. And getting faster.

[radar51]

I installed the wagon bar (singular) tonight and realized my feeble old mind was completely dyslexic. The Front of the TB's is the smallest so it's bassackwards of what I said. Maybe. I've been drinking. CCW one notch on the driver's side and the front travels farther than the back so maybe I was wrong before. Or... Anyway, it really does work if you really need it. You probably don't. I did some adjusting to mine tonight and could scarcely keep from rolling on the floor when I stepped back and looked at it. It's seriously comical. And getting faster.

A wise man once said "If an idea looks stupid but works, it isn't a stupid idea".

Sent from my Z796C using Tapatalk

[Dirtcircle86]

I really shouldn't drink and post but I knew I was wrong on which end was the larger, and wanted to correct regardless of intoxicant level.

Rocko, if you only want to drop 1 spline, the easiest is to remove an additional spline from the rear of the TB. It makes the groove three wide instead of two. CRX and 4x4 wagon bars have the double wide groove on both ends. For some reason Teg bars are not notched or groove on the back (big) end.

For endless tuneability, a good sharp hack saw will notch the double-wide indexing spline in the torque tube and radius arm. I used a grinder to mark the ends where the grooves/notches used to be. If not, Jethro has no reference as to where it was.

To explain my drunken rambling about the car looking funny, it would help if you have ever seen a 800 hp modified sitting still or trying to drive straight. The suspension settings look like a train wreck with 10* camber, 3" toe out, and rear axles off center by 6". The more I tune to turn, the more mine resembles those cars.

[rockosocko]

NO worries here.. I get tied up with trying to remember 'back when' (had years of 'drunken ramblings' not any more though, it'll kill you) how I did 'things' and doing a SEARCH when 50billion threads come up that lead one down a rabbit trail, and still don't answer the question in the first place.

I'm 51 and it seems to take just TOO much time, and have too much to do.

 

Back to the bars.

I think I'll have more of the Ah-ha moment when I swap the teg stuff over and install the larger sway bars. 

Thank you for being patient 

I dug out my front suspension that I cut into 3 parts (...? don't know why, must have been one of those beer/Jack moments). I'll take one side apart after reading your thread over and over to get it through my head..

Slight change of plans that I think It will be my daily here shortly and won't be tearing it apart just yet.

E

[LagginWagon]

I'm just making sure I have this right.

 

1) Hammer out the torsion bar from the back, so that the front splines are sticking out.

2) Grind off the double wide spline, and use a hack saw to mark the index spline on the outside of the torsion bar.

3) From the front of the car on the drivers side re index the torsion bar by turning the torsion bar(2 or 3 notches) counter clock wise to go lower.(do the opposite on the passenger side).

4) Fine tune the ride height by turning the torsion bar adjustment nut.

5) Mad stance accomplished!!!

 

Does this seem about right???

 

Confirmation would be helpful thanks.