Red Pepper Racing

OK this is just a lighthearted poke here......

But, aren't you changing the weight distribution by adding heavier disks to the back.......thus increasing the need for better rear braking?



Rob

Logic:
Unsprung weight is a VERY BAD thing. Brakes are unsprung. Heavy brakes are a bad thing.

Thank you for the explanation.......Of course none of us on this site are competing in F1 with our cars and the slight difference in unsprung weight isn't going to make a blind bit of difference to ANY of us.

But that's beside the point......in terms of straight out cut and dry statements....yes, less unsprung weight is better.

However, EVERY car is a compromise and I'm willing to compromise the weight difference for ease of maintenance and other performance differentiators I have mentioned before.

Besides, the weight difference probably amounts to about 0.005sec a lap. As if I am consistent enough a driver to notice that.



Rob

and the stupid teg disks make your rear track width wider...I'm still bent about that. Stupid offset, stupid car, stupid disk brakes... haha!! Ok all better now

i have the teg disks and i thinkim going to like them (car is not running ) i removed some unsprung weight and added the disks in the rear. plus i like it that the car got a wider rear track width

huh....I figured scott would have replied within a hour.........amost 1hr 17mins......

believe me scott I do get what you are saying, I understand everything about what your saying.
which im not saying your full of it(all of which you are saying is very true)
but the brakes issue we all know where you stand on this topic
but drums brakes..........are...........so.........80's

you also have to think about who owns most of 1g/3g cars..........men, and I can tell you I am very competitive and my car has to have everything that I can possibly do to it including adding the extra weight of superior disc brakes, knowing that your car has more badass stuff then the other guy.

its like that feeling you get after some dumb kid in a eg cx w/a muffler, and some pillar guages(always have the A/F ratio guage because they need it on their stock NA honda) pulls up at the light next to you, looks at you and revs his engine. while you sit there and think should i do it just because he's an idiot or should i do it because i am a f**ing man and not going to that shit from some kid..........some you race him and burn his ahole a new one.........................you know that felling not that it is that good of a feeling because you already knew you he didn't stand a chance but close enough
(I just had to add that its happened to all of us but from a 40 roll)

Men????

Come on, be serious. There are no "men" here, just a bunch of children (me included) playing with toys. Ill-mannered children for the most part, who stubbornly cling to their pre-conceived notions.

Back when I was chronologically young, kids took pride in being able to grasp new concepts and to not being slaves to the fashion sense of the hordes.

With very few exceptions, the kids I run into these days are too scared of not meeting the community's concept of Normal to express themselves differently.

Take a risk. Try new Ideas. Dare to be Different.

I get it. Aluminum drums do not meet the criteria your peers have set for you. Swapping in rear disks will make you just like all the other guys. I get it.

Welcome to the herd.

Scott

I use my brakes a LOT racing. When you are going 70+ miles an hour and approaching a sharp turn at the end of the straight you need the brakes.

Mark-I have a LSD in my ice car, though not locked. Using the brakes helps to step the car out, also using the handbrake is an easy way to get the car to rotate in a hurry if you misjudge a turn.

I have built a couple of purpose built race cars that have better than stock weight distribution. They all had disc brakes. 15 minutes per side is still three times what it takes to change pads. Lastly, if you race regularly, you will most definitely burn out your pads at some point before you burn out your car.

im no expert, but i do know that our cars are very light, and the gap in that 60/40 ratio substantially increases under heavy breaking. that doesnt leave much for the rear to break. also, that just makes it easier to loose you back end if you for some reason have to break while entering a turn. If our cars NEEDED rear discs, then honda would have put them there. the break system is set up to apply proper pressure in the proper front vs rear ratios, adding rear discs changes that. Its not like rear discs werent available to honda at the time, they decided that it was unnecessary. besides the aluminum drums are lighter, and dont look all that bad in a nice clean aluminum color. although, the discs are fashionable.
Edited by KSousa, 15 February 2009 - 05:05 AM.

OK.....either you are related to Scott, or Scott just made up a new login name so he had some backup.....which one is it!?



BTW, the statement you make "If our cars NEEDED rear discs, then Honda would have put them there." You assume that performance is the only consideration made when installing equipment on vehicles to market.

That is about as far from the truth as can be......the initial consideration is COST. Honda wanted to market a vehicle at a certain price point.....the drums are cheaper so they get installed.....that's how it works.

The only cars where the raw performance is the driving force are High End Supercars such as Ferrari Enzo, Porsche Carrera GT, McLaren Mercedes SLR.......

MOST cars excluding the top stuff is designed to a price......engineering/preformance is secondary to COST. The accountants rule in the auto industry. Which explains why most car companies make crap product these days.....its a collection of the cheapest stuff they can assemble into the form of a car.......

KSousa is not me, I swear.

Those wacky accountants at Honda saddled the EDM/JDM CRX with the ZC engine and those dopey drum brakes. I am sure that is not the only item the accountants cramed down the Honda Engineers' throat. After all, Honda is known for their accountants rather than their engineers.

Scott

Dude, you have no idea how the auto industry works on the engineering side.......on the other hand, I've been there. How bout you just admit that I make a VERY valid point.

Here's another question for you then......if the Aluminum drums are so superior, and you argue that the accountants are not involved with engineering at Honda.......then why do the EDM and JDM cars have the Cast Iron drums and not the aluminum?? EVERYBODY knows the aluminum drums are the best......Even the Engineers at Honda, who incidentally, when given a less restrictive budget to build a race variant of the Civic, opted for discs?

In fact......why don't any of the vehicles Honda has produced since the CRX have the Aluminum Drums (excpet the Insight I believe)?

I'm just curious to know why such a VASTLY superior braking technology has been thrown out in favour of the villainous disc brake?

Does anyone know?

You do know a lot more than I do about the auto industry and you did make a valid point. I just like to see you get all excited online.

I do not know this for a fact, but I would guess that the engineers slipped the aluminum drums onto the USDM HF so that they would be available in the parts supply chain. No one could justify the expense of aluminum drums on EVERY Civic/CRX, but (and this is just a guess) they could charge them off to the HF model to get the benefit of light weight for the gas-sipper model and allow the competition folks a chance to get some lighter brakes.

Scott

Honda made the aluminum drums for 1 purpose.. To reduce mass in the HF for better MPG's and more efficient power to weight ratio... That's why the lightweight bumper reinforcements, the SUPER light aluminum HF wheels, the aluminum drums etc.

The only possible benefit of the aluminum drums that can be proven now is WEIGHT. I doubt the perform any better maybe they perform worse? I don't know.

Discs actually provide better braking & easier changeouts.

My race friend "the undefeatd asian stig" said he opted for drums due to the integra units offering TOO much braking force in that particular cars duty, so to him they were TOO good for his application as track tested.

In a straight line braking test, ease of changing, or on a track in which high speed corner entering are needed DISCS would be far superior.. In a low HP car used in a short course, lower speed event or even on a basic street car I'm sure drums would be just fine.

Fun fact: drum breaks take far less force to apply due to their self energizing design. So, in theory, drum breaks can deliver more stopping force.

Now for the other factor. It still remains that either setup has more than enough breaking force to lock ANY tire available on the market (for street use at least). Consideration is now swayed to control so that you can stop the car at the locking point but not go beyond it.

The less force it takes to apply the breaks, the less control you have. It's that simple. It's why people chose to remove break assist in racing applications.

(I won't get into cooling, we all know disks are easier to cool)



Basic point I'm making, is that in pure stopping power drum brakes are best. It's pretty much everything else that makes them better for racing.