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Rear Brakes(aka A Topic That Has Been Beaten To Death)


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#31
87MugenProCR-X

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I've run both drums and discs, from my experience with the integra setup the rear would lock very easily and trailbraking was a nervous situation. This was on a car with near factory weight distribution and on R compounds. The CRX I track now uses stock cast drums in the rear and is much more stable braking/trailbraking. I don't think I've locked the rear once in normal conditions under braking. This is with stock shoes, big R comps and slightly better weight distribution(more rear bias).

My thoughts on the two are the integra setup is too much in my case and the rear drums may provide too little braking in my current application. I am thinking one of my next projects will be using the integra setup with an adjustable proportioning valve so that I can set it the way I like and trying to get some downforce in the rear of this thing. For me, this would be the best compromise.

Julian

#32
EuphoricBlue

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QUOTE (87MugenProCR-X @ Feb 15 2009, 01:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've run both drums and discs, from my experience with the integra setup the rear would lock very easily and trailbraking was a nervous situation. This was on a car with near factory weight distribution and on R compounds. The CRX I track now uses stock cast drums in the rear and is much more stable braking/trailbraking. I don't think I've locked the rear once in normal conditions under braking. This is with stock shoes, big R comps and slightly better weight distribution(more rear bias).

My thoughts on the two are the integra setup is too much in my case and the rear drums may provide too little braking in my current application. I am thinking one of my next projects will be using the integra setup with an adjustable proportioning valve so that I can set it the way I like and trying to get some downforce in the rear of this thing. For me, this would be the best compromise.

Julian


You are describing balance. That's a setup issue. And setups vary from driver to driver.

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#33
jsgprod

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QUOTE (EuphoricBlue @ Feb 15 2009, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Basic point I'm making, is that in pure stopping power drum brakes are best. It's pretty much everything else that makes them better for racing.


huh.gif blink.gif huh.gif REALLY!! Maybe just about every race vehicle designer/builder on the planet has it wrong then... wink.gif .

Tell you what, go find yourself a vehicle still equipped with four wheel drums (ANY vehicle, I don't care) drive it through some water then see how well they work for ya. Then do the same thing with something equipped with just front discs...bet the brakes work!

Oh, one more thing...
QUOTE (cbstdscott @ Feb 12 2009, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Take a risk. Try new Ideas. Dare to be Different.

I get it. Aluminum drums do not meet the criteria your peers have set for you. Swapping in rear disks will make you just like all the other guys. I get it.

Welcome to the herd.

Scott


Seriously Scott? Damn near every one of us here is driving around in a car going on a 30 yr old design with buggy suspension. Yeah, we're all in the 'herd'. wink.gif

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#34
RARECRX

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Well damnit..

When I go to the Corvette dealership to buy my wife a new car I will ask for the all 4 13" drum brake option..

If drums are superior in stopping power I will have a contest for you.. You get ANY STOCK 4 wheel drum car of the 60's and I will challenge you to a braking test in my Town & country minivan with 4 wheel discs .. And lets start a gambling poll..

I have driven my brother Fairlane with 4 wheel drums.. its like stopping a freight train with a full load..

Drums may technically have more "friction surface" thus the theory of greater "stopping power" but put FADE into the equation..

#35
RETROCRX

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QUOTE (87MugenProCR-X @ Feb 15 2009, 10:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've run both drums and discs, from my experience with the integra setup the rear would lock very easily and trailbraking was a nervous situation. This was on a car with near factory weight distribution and on R compounds. The CRX I track now uses stock cast drums in the rear and is much more stable braking/trailbraking. I don't think I've locked the rear once in normal conditions under braking. This is with stock shoes, big R comps and slightly better weight distribution(more rear bias).

My thoughts on the two are the integra setup is too much in my case and the rear drums may provide too little braking in my current application. I am thinking one of my next projects will be using the integra setup with an adjustable proportioning valve so that I can set it the way I like and trying to get some downforce in the rear of this thing. For me, this would be the best compromise.

Julian


Hey Julian, did you use the integra master and proportionaing valve when you tried that setup? Or did you use is as a straight swap?

I ask becasue I have no rear lockup issues. Only time I have a rear lock up, in general, is when it's off the ground. Then I get that cool little puff of smoke when it sits back down!! biggrin.gif

Just curious what you were running.

As for the rest of this arguement.......I can't take it anymore......Scott, you can believe what you want to believe, it's your choice......but if we ever get a chance to race together on the same track don't make excuses when I outbrake you.

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#36
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jsgprod and RARECRX, did you guys read the whole post? I'm using stopping power in terms of the force you are able to exert between the friction surfaces using a set input force.

Force is nothing without control and that's what disk breaks provide, the only thing we need to do is increase input force and we can do that easily enough now.

And why are you bringing water evacuation into the mix? AFAIK, everyone here does fair weather racing. Not to mention, "It's pretty much everything else that makes them better for racing" is referring to disk brakes. As in to say that self energizing and weight are the only two advantages drums have.


PS: why do I even reply to these drum brake posts? They have stopped being about considering information and have become underhanded flaming strings. The art here isn't in presenting info, it's in figuring out ways to call other people idiots without going right out and saying it.

#37
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QUOTE (EuphoricBlue @ Feb 15 2009, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fun fact: drum breaks take far less force to apply due to their self energizing design. So, in theory, drum breaks can deliver more stopping force.

Now for the other factor. It still remains that either setup has more than enough breaking force to lock ANY tire available on the market (for street use at least). Consideration is now swayed to control so that you can stop the car at the locking point but not go beyond it.

The less force it takes to apply the breaks, the less control you have. It's that simple. It's why people chose to remove break assist in racing applications.

(I won't get into cooling, we all know disks are easier to cool)

Basic point I'm making, is that in pure stopping power drum brakes are best. It's pretty much everything else that makes them better for racing.

84-87 Honda Civic rear drum brakes are not self energizing drum brakes
http://nptel.iitm.ac..._II/pdf/3_2.pdf
I agree with everything else you said here.
Jeff


#38
RARECRX

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I have stated before.

In a straight line braking test, ease of changing, or on a track in which high speed corner entering are needed DISCS would be far superior.. In a low HP car used in a short course, lower speed event or even on a basic street car I'm sure drums would be just fine.

PLUS WIDER SELECTION OF PADS for discs..

I do like drums and I have them on the CRX .My Datsun roadster had gargantuan aluminum rear drums. I am not against drums, but I do not promote them to everyone on the site like they are the best thing since double ply toilet paper. I have no use for disks other than to put them on for "cool" factor with my wide spoked wheels to showoff.

If I were a dedicated racer and constantly ran on speedy, lengthy circuits, discs would be my choice..

#39
EuphoricBlue

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QUOTE (1985 CRX SI @ Feb 15 2009, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
84-87 Honda Civic rear drum brakes are not self energizing drum brakes


Sure they are. They have one cylinder (top) and an anchor on only one side (botom).

If you examine fig 3.1.5 on page 6, it shows the two basic deigns. Left is self energizing, right is not. Our system is the one on the left, we have a trailing and leading shoe.

Note: The cylinder does not act as an anchor point. Press one piston in, and the fluid will push the other out. This is what allows them to be self energizing.

#40
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QUOTE (EuphoricBlue @ Feb 15 2009, 10:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sure they are. They have one cylinder (top) and an anchor on only one side (botom).

If you examine fig 3.1.5 on page 6, it shows the two basic deigns. Left is self energizing, right is not. Our system is the one on the left, we have a trailing and leading shoe.

Note: The cylinder does not act as an anchor point. Press one piston in, and the fluid will push the other out. This is what allows them to be self energizing.

I was under the impression that both shoes had to be leading.

Jeff

#41
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QUOTE (1985 CRX SI @ Feb 15 2009, 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was under the impression that both shoes had to be leading.


Ah, I see the confusion. "Self-energizing: A brake shoe that is forced into the drum by the movement of the drum. A self-energizing shoe is mounted so its friction surface leads or is ahead of its pivot point."

So, I guess, both systems are technically "Self Energizing".

Two leading shoes will self energize both shoes in one direction, and no shoes in another. (More force stopping one way, less the other)
One Leading, one trailing will have one shoe self energize in either direction. (Equal braking force both ways)

#42
crazy87rexsi

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to answer a couple things
i am not conforming i am chosing a system that is in fact safer. lets think back like 30yrs 4-wheel drum systems could you stop with them going down the interstate. why dont you dare to be different and put drums on the front and still go to the track. come to think about it scott your not being different you put stock hf drums on your si.that are designed to pretty much fit(yes i know backing plate blah blah) I am being different, you don't have disc brakes in the rear.

same thing drum brakes fade very easy and hold in the heat, discs disappeat heat faster and more efficent

also who likes having your drums stuck on because there is a lip on the drum because of wear(yes adjust the star wheel:time consuming and lets say if your racing do you want something that stupid to hold you back)besides there are way too many things that can go wrong with drum brakes, to many things that wear and break.
simply put it is complex and out dated. we found something that is more efficient and simpler(i don't know if thats even a word)
DISC BRAKES

Edited by crazy87rexsi, 16 February 2009 - 02:29 PM.

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#43
cbstdscott

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I am retiring from this discussion.

Not that I am tired of the discussion but that I am tired of the rancour that it has created. We are all brothers of the Old Honda family, we should be tolerant of each other's choices.

I may have been the worst offender in the past, but I have seen the light and I am now living on a higher plane. If you wish to join me in this Old Honda Utopia, you are more than welcome. Please leave your anger behind.

Scott
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#44
87MugenProCR-X

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QUOTE (RETROCRX @ Feb 15 2009, 09:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey Julian, did you use the integra master and proportionaing valve when you tried that setup? Or did you use is as a straight swap?

I ask becasue I have no rear lockup issues. Only time I have a rear lock up, in general, is when it's off the ground. Then I get that cool little puff of smoke when it sits back down!! biggrin.gif

Just curious what you were running.

As for the rest of this arguement.......I can't take it anymore......Scott, you can believe what you want to believe, it's your choice......but if we ever get a chance to race together on the same track don't make excuses when I outbrake you.

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Retro,
I think I should have been more clear, this was in basically a street car with some suspension mods. I was running the entire Integra system including front brakes, master cylinder and prop valve. I would agree that comparing these two setups on completely different cars, setup for different purposes is like apples and oranges. I'm glad to hear that you don't have lock up problems with your setup and gives me more confidence to try rear discs again(sorry Scott).

Curious, do you have any experience racing the same car with drums? What types of differences did you see?

Julian

#45
RETROCRX

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Julian,

I haven't driven the same car with drums and discs.....my old CRX had drums, from that experience I built the new one with discs.

To be honest both cars feel the same balance wise with drums and discs. I don't know about a measurable difference in actual braking capacity but they feel the same. To be honest I can and could with drums, snag a front wheel on braking well before I would lock a rear. Unless the rear is in the air like I said before.

The main problem I had with the drum setup was pedal degradation over the course of a session. Because the rear shoes would wear and then spring return I would end up with my pedal getting longer and longer as the session wore on and it made it increasingly difficult to slow the car and heel and toe at the same time. I would end up dragging the throttle a little becasue the brake pedal had gotten longer. I don't know if you've ever inadvertently done that, but it's not a good feeling. You just wonder why the hell the car isn't stopping and when you realise what's happening it's too late to make the corner and you end up having a little off and on at the entry to the corner! NOT FUN! So based on that, when I built RETROCRX I decided that discs were the way to go and it has proven to be the correct decision as far as I'm concerned.

Not to mention how much easier to work on the discs are and the greater availability of pads and rotors.

Hope that helps in your quest for laptime! biggrin.gif

Rob


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