61 replies to this topic

[psychoboy]

another option is to use spring clamps.

spring clamps effectively remove a coil from the active list.
cutting a coil effectively removes a coil from the active list.
How are they different, effectively?

the only way you can stiffen a coil is by adding wire thinkness. if you look at an aftermarket spring vs. a factory spring in most cases you will find many more coils than the stock one and in some cases it will either be the same length or taller.

you realize that that's a non-sequitor, right?

adding wire thickness has nothing to do with more coils or taller springs.

when a spring is weighted at say 100 lbs. and has 4 coils that means that every coil it has is rated at 25lbs. when you take out 1 coil it drops it to a 75# spring.

....and this is Load Rating, which is related to, but not the same as, Spring Rate.



BTW your 'only' statement flies in the face of the prevailing theory. the PT says removing active coils, thickening the wire (your 'only' option), or making the coil diameter smaller (mostly impractical to this application) INCREASES the rate. Adding coils, thinning the wire, or fattening the coil diameter (still impractical, mostly) DECREASES the rate.




the math that everyone uses for coil spring rates look something like this:

SR = (MoSS x WD^4) / (8 x AC x CD^3)

where SR = Spring Rate of Coil Spring - pounds per square inch
MoSS = Modulus of Spring Steel (generalized as 11,250,000 lb / in^2)
WD = Wire Diameter - inches
AC = Active Coils
CD = Mean Coil Diameter - inches
source - one of many

everyone who is interested in the topic says that wire length is important, since the coil spring functions as a wound torsion spring, and torsions care about their length.

however, you'll notice that the formula above (and most of the other versions of it) can not distinguish between two 10 coil springs of the same outer diameter made from the same wire; one with 1 inch gaps between adjoining coils, and one with 10 inch gaps between adjoining coils.

we can all agree that those two springs would differ greatly in their amounts of wire....and their rates should be wildly different as well, but the math says they will be the same.



so, here's a question for our new metallurgist and race suspension extraordinaire:

is there a more accurate method of calculating spring rates? (or one that agrees with your 'only' position?)


once I know where you stand on the accepted math, we can continue this discussion.
(and so you know, i don't entirely disagree with some of your concepts)

Edited by psychoboy, 22 March 2011 - 03:10 PM.

[psychoboy]

all of these posts in this thread saying that its fine to cut springs proves that i am the only one who has ever set up a real race suspension setup. have you ever even heard of corner balancing? do you realize that i am a metal-smith/metal worker and i have taken more metallurgy classes than everyone on here combined (more than likely) i have more books and education on this matter than everyone who has posted.

you're probably right



there's no chance that anyone



that has posted in this thread



knows anything about racing cars



or building performance suspensions on the cheap


Thanks to the fabulous Fullers for their pics!



:ohnoes:


....with a torch, no less!!!
WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!

Edited by psychoboy, 22 March 2011 - 03:40 PM.

[kaymo]

lol dont be mean psychoboy. im sure he knows better now.

[psychoboy]

lol dont be mean psychoboy. im sure he knows better now.

we'll see. i do hope he has some thoughtful answers to my questions.

[EuphoricBlue]

the only way you can stiffen a coil is by adding wire thinkness. if you look at an aftermarket spring vs. a factory spring in most cases you will find many more coils than the stock one and in some cases it will either be the same length or taller.

The more you argue this spring rate business the more we doubt your stated credentials.

You're making one simple mistake somewhere and you're so sure we are all country bumpkins that you're refusing to re-examine your statement. The mistake is that, you are treating a spring as if it was 1 coil.

Basic fact is that the deflection of an individual coil under a given weight is unchanging. Thus it is additive. A spring is nothing more than multiple coils stacked on top each other.
Say 1 coil compresses 1/10th of an inch under 200lb. If your spring had 10 of these coils it would compress 1" total because each coil would compress 0.1" .1x10=1. If it had 20 coils it would compress 2", 0.1x20=2. The spring with 10 coils compressed only 1" but the sprig with 20 coils compressed 2", the 10 coil spring has a higher spring rate.

Remember, just because we didn't take some course on metal theory doesn't mean we don't understand how it works.
Some of us actually have a very good grasp of physics and don't need to know the formula to understand the theory.

[brando]

spring clamps effectively remove a coil from the active list.
cutting a coil effectively removes a coil from the active list.
How are they different, effectively?


you realize that that's a non-sequitor, right?

adding wire thickness has nothing to do with more coils or taller springs.


....and this is Load Rating, which is related to, but not the same as, Spring Rate.



BTW your 'only' statement flies in the face of the prevailing theory. the PT says removing active coils, thickening the wire (your 'only' option), or making the coil diameter smaller (mostly impractical to this application) INCREASES the rate. Adding coils, thinning the wire, or fattening the coil diameter (still impractical, mostly) DECREASES the rate.




the math that everyone uses for coil spring rates look something like this:

SR = (MoSS x WD^4) / (8 x AC x CD^3)

where SR = Spring Rate of Coil Spring - pounds per square inch
MoSS = Modulus of Spring Steel (generalized as 11,250,000 lb / in^2)
WD = Wire Diameter - inches
AC = Active Coils
CD = Mean Coil Diameter - inches
source - one of many

everyone who is interested in the topic says that wire length is important, since the coil spring functions as a wound torsion spring, and torsions care about their length.

however, you'll notice that the formula above (and most of the other versions of it) can not distinguish between two 10 coil springs of the same outer diameter made from the same wire; one with 1 inch gaps between adjoining coils, and one with 10 inch gaps between adjoining coils.

we can all agree that those two springs would differ greatly in their amounts of wire....and their rates should be wildly different as well, but the math says they will be the same.



so, here's a question for our new metallurgist and race suspension extraordinaire:

is there a more accurate method of calculating spring rates? (or one that agrees with your 'only' position?)


once I know where you stand on the accepted math, we can continue this discussion.
(and so you know, i don't entirely disagree with some of your concepts)

i guess i shout try to type a little better seeing how looking back on it my post made no sense as i did cross over and i didn't complete what i was trying to say. nor should i do frustrated 6am posting anymore. sorry everyone

spring clamps do not remove a coil what so-ever they will actually stiffen a coil by basically combining the 2 coils into one. it may not be much and you will stress the coil and risk failure but if you cutting a coil your more than likely not worried about how well it works.

the best way i can find to test a spring rate is by using a rate tester something that will measure how much resistance is given. you can do all the math in the world but you still will not know the k factor for every inch of wire you use. you can get damn close though.

this all still doesn't really feed into the fact that if its worth doin it worth doin right..

so yes in short you can actually cut a coil and it might work ok. but if your going to do it then at least buy a cheap set of coil's designed to do this or a set of megan coil overs or something

[brando]

for everyone who is butt hurt i will remove my posts and we can just forget that this all happened.

[psychoboy]

spring clamps do not remove a coil what so-ever they will actually stiffen a coil by basically combining the 2 coils into one. it may not be much and you will stress the coil and risk failure but if you cutting a coil your more than likely not worried about how well it works.

they remove a coil from the active portion of the equation (which mathematically increases the rate), and they essentially double the wire for one coil (which also increases the rate)

again i ask, do you have a better formula than the generally accepted one (since i can prove that one inaccurate, i'd like to find a better one)

this all still doesn't really feed into the fact that if its worth doin it worth doin right..

i can agree with the sentiment, it's your definition of "right" i have a problem with.

so yes in short you can actually cut a coil and it might work ok. but if your going to do it then at least buy a cheap set of coil's designed to do this or a set of megan coil overs or something

springs are still springs. it's not as though some are designed to be cut and some aren't (tho, i could make a really good argument for cutting those space taking coils that stack under load)

since stock coils are usually a little softer than what we'd want, a little taller than we want, and capable of carrying more weight than we really need.....trimming them down (and increasing the rate, lowering the weight rating, and lowering the car in the process) is not a bad idea.

trimming down performance springs, however, could result in harsher than desired results.

for everyone who is butt hurt i will remove my posts and we can just forget that this all happened.

or you can man up, admit you needlessly insulted a bunch of people you don't know, apologize, and move on with the rational logical side of the discussion.

nearly everything you posted has been quoted. deleting your posts (as you have) merely serves to make you seem petty and childish. it comes of as "i don't like your game, i'm taking my ball and going home".

Edited by psychoboy, 23 March 2011 - 10:43 AM.

[EuphoricBlue]

for everyone who is butt hurt i will remove my posts and we can just forget that this all happened.

We aren't hurt, we simply don't let misinformation slide. We either prove you wrong, or are proven wrong, but facts are straightened out in the end and everyone is better for it.

You can cut springs and end up with reasonable results.
A chopped spring has a higher spring rate than the original.

[kaymo]

chill out there bud, we are not trying to prove YOU wrong, we are simply trying to make sure that misinformation is not spread, as it is a disease.

friend of mine recently overheard a female co-worker authoritatively stating that "cold sores come from red dye in soft drinks" can you imagine if herpes was an ingredient of cocacola? can you imagine if everyone believed what they were told by someone else?

remember, its ok to be wrong. it means you get to learn something. we all have had those moments where we truly thought we knew something and turned out to be incorrect. sometimes the person who showed you your errors is gracious in their delivery, sometimes... you are on honda-tech

happily we have this place, where there are many bright minds to set the record straight... and usually go about it in a very honorable way. dont get mad though if some of us have a little fun with it... sometimes we have few other joys... being right all the time happens to be one of mine!

smile and be happy you arent on honda tech lol

[brando]

if all works out and i am able to get ahold of a spring tester i will be buying a set of aftermarket springs and a set of rsx springs. i will test them then install them and try it out. the question is on what springs i will buy

[1styearSI]

Sounds like a nother old honda Is getting its suspension ruined.I have nothing constructive to say here.oh yeah i do listen to kaymo

[treehugger]

o boy

[chedda_j]

Back from the dead! I had to cut one ring off of my coil because the car wasnt sitting level, due to one spring being bagged out a bit. But that was only temporary. 

[1styearSI]

wow what a dick

why is kaymo not a administrator??