24 replies to this topic

[PacerRacerGirl]

Okay, I've been doing a lot of reading and research on the web, and think I've come up with a low buck way to make my 86 Si handle better.

1. Adjustable shocks. (I'm going to get these regardless)
2. Front torsion bars from a 4wd Civic wagon. (They're supposed to be stiffer. How much more stiff? Is it worth it?)
C. Civic wagon rear springs, cut to the right ride height for my car. (They're supposed to be stiffer too. Will cutting them to the same height ...or a little lower than... my springs be a big problem?)
5. Welding the internal rear sway bar.

Then...

Integra front disc brakes, and larger rear drums. Also the master cylinder. (Why are the CRX HF drums supposed to be so good?)

Integra ECU. The extra 500 RPM would help a lot on the faster autocross courses, making it so I could go around 63-65 MPH in second gear.

After the suspension and brakes are all set, I'll work on making it go faster.

...The only problem is, with all these mods I will be in CSP! (Eeek! ) Or Street Mod. (Eeek! ) (I'm talking about in autocross BTW...)

Thanks!

[Gasoline Fumes]

Here are the torsion bars:

CRX HF: 1.44 kg/mm rate, 18.6mm x 621.6mm long
CRX: 1.74 kg/mm, 19.7mm x 621.6
Teg: 1.76 kg/mm, 20.9mm x 651.6mm long
Civic HB: 1.95kg/mm, 20.1x611.9
Civic HB: 2.08kg/mm, 20.6x611.9 (assuming Si?)
Wagon 4WD: 2.14 kg/mm, 20.7x629
Wagon FF: 2.26 kg/mm, 20.4x570

The HF drums are aluminum.

[rpr]

The HF drums are aluminum.

Thus lighter, which is why they are a bonus. Also, if you go teg ECU, you should also go with teg injectors.

[Krispy]

why not stay in stock?

Yes, the wagon parts are stiffer but not much.  For a racing application it would make no difference.

[Davidov]

When you get the Integra brake components, get the rear disks as well, screw rear drums.
Look at steel-braided brake lines as well, I've heard they take up alot of slack in the brake pedal, as well as solidly push fluid to the brakes.

If you're getting adjustable shocks, just spend the extra money to get shorter/stiffer springs and aftermarket torsion bars.

Does anyone have a link to that website that sells suspension goodies for 84-87 Civic/CRX's? It's something like MPR? or MPO?

[PacerRacerGirl]

I guess somewere in there the low buck comment got lost. I am going to have to save for 4-5 months just to get the shocks. No problem, I'll just shove my plans back to their original timeframe.

Thanks for the info on whether or not the wagon parts would make any sort of significant difference Krispy.  

Thanks!

[Twiztidcrx]

www.opm.com

[dacollier1]

I've done most of this, so here's what I saw
1) I used tokico illuminas, and love them.  best choice by far in my opnion (having beat the guys on Koni's regularly)
2) torsion bars.  The quote on torsion bar sizes was from a note i posted on the gen 1 integra site.  It is from a letter to me from Mugan in 1987 asking about the topic.  the general consensus then was it's not worth it.  you would have to relocate the rear mounting point (can't change suspension mounting points in stock or CSP)
3) rear springs.  Grass roots motorsport had detailed the cut for the springs several years ago.  Their reccomendation was to cut to about the same height and then keep trimming until you get the ride height you want.  Adjust the front torsion bars down first to where you want to be, and then match it with the rears.  I tried this, but eventually went with JR springs (no longer avail).  the wagon springs are next best other than ground control coil overs.
Welding the internal bar.  never did that, but a used bar from an integra in a junk yard fits, and is larger.  If you weld, take the axle out.  the gas tank is right next to the axle.

brakes:  Use 88-89 civic DX/Si, not integra.  Reason is that the caliper piston in the 84-86 civic and 88-89 civic is 51mm.  in the 86-89 integra it's 54mm.  This larger piston will upset the brake bias unless you change all the other parts to integra.  It also will make the civic pedal go closer to the floor than if you use the 88-89 civic parts.  The 88-89 civic and 86-89 integra rotor is the same part# from honda/accura, so it fits either way.  I did this conversion on my 86 Si, and it works very well.  
Rear discs:  Widens the track 1.5" (3/4" per side).  This may cause tires to hit the fender lips.  Also, the rear discs did not seem to make much difference in performance (but look cool).  because I wanted the fender clearance, and my drum brake set up was real good, I changed back to the drums.  Conversion is easy.
Someone mentioned braided lines.  This is very worth while.  the pedal is much firmer and thus easier to modulate and easier to get to threshold braking point.
ECU:  this only works if you have an Si.  I found my car was slower with the integra ecu, so I bought another integra ecu, and found the same thing.  I have an air fuel meter and found that on the integra ecu, it was leaning out in the mid RPM range and that slowed the car from 3500-5000 RPM.  It does raise the fuel cut off at east 500 rpm, but until I eventually put a ZC (JDM integra engine) in, I went back to the stock ECU.

[PacerRacerGirl]

Dacollier, my car is a Si. I searched high and low for one, and am glad I found it. I used to be slightly anti-Honda, just because everyone had one! I'm a fan now though.

I was thinking of getting Koni's because all the people using Koni's tell me they're better than Tokico's ... and of course the people using Tokico's say the same about the Koni's! (LOL) Tokico's are a little less expensive though I believe.

From what I understand, the Integra torsion bars are longer than the wagon/hatchback's bars. (Which are supposedly the same length) Regardless the length differences, there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference in their stiffness.

Brakes: Thanks for the advice on the brakes! As to drum rear brakes, the drums on a Integra are bigger, giving you more area to push against. Plus it's supposed to be a snap to changeover. Braided lines make that big a difference? That's great to know. I feel that left foot braking is essential to getting a front wheel drive car around the course quickly, and better brake feel would be awesome. After riding in a couple other cars I realise that my brakes are only so-so.

ECU: Are 86-87 Si's supposed to have a rev limiter? Cause I haven't found one yet! I've looked down at the tach and saw the needle right on the 7000 rpm mark a couple times. (Prolly not a good thing) Am I running risk of blowing up my engine?

[rpr]

Does anyone have a link to that website that sells suspension goodies for 84-87 Civic/CRX's? It's something like MPR? or MPO?

Check this post for somewhere to buy those parts...

[dacollier1]

When I tried the teg ecu, i did not use the integra injectors, but I did use a variable fuel pressure regulator and bumped up the pressure until the idle started to drop, and it still had the lean out in the mid range according to the A/F meter.  Perhaps switching to the teg injectors would have resolved that.  I found a cold air induction made it worse because it got a lot more air in, and no more fuel...even to the point of detonation at 2 degree retarded.

There is a rev limiter on the Si ecu.  If you haven't found it yet, you don't need the integra ecu just to get a little more rpm range.  It is just past 7000 RPM.  The integra one is off the end of my 8000 RPM stock tach, but I have found it in the heat of an autocross.  The ZC can take 8000, but I don't think I'd try that on the stock EW4 too many times.

The integra rear brakes are disc, not drum.  If the car weighed more, the advantage would be bigger.  Check the SCCA rules to see if that would put you beyond CSP or just to CSP.   The increased competition may not be worth the effort.  The HF rums probably would be OK, but aren't the SI brake shoes wider than the HF... would switching to the narrow HF shoes off set the gain of the light weight?
Left foot braking is an art.  If you do that well, it will make a difference.  I find modulation very hard to do when LF braking.  So instead, I use an additional rear sway bar and drop the rear tire presure down to the low 20's, and the rear of the car rotates very easily when I left off the gas or touch the brakes.   To really make it rotate (or instead of a second rear bar), use R compound tires only on the front, and good street tires (like yoko AVS intermediates) on the back.

Torsion bars:   the Si bars are 611.9mm long, the wagon bars are 629mm long for the 4wd and 570mm for the FWD... as you can see they aren't the same length, so the rear mount will not go in the stock welded nuts.  Although, if you let the front of the bar stick through the front where the rubber cap goes, you might get the back cap in the stock location if you use the 4wd bar.  Otherwise, the 23mm (or larger)Diameter bars (like from OPM) is the only legal option outside of D Mod.  The car will pound you on the street though.

[CRXfanatic]

Mang, lots of discussion going on.

Here's what worked for me as a far as suspension: Tokico Illuminas all around, 23mm t bars, rear factory springs cut to 10.5 inch free height, Addco 19mm rear sway bar, no front sway bar, front strut tower bar.

I'd forget the wagon stuff except for cut rear wagon springs.

I'd do the internal rear sway bar mod and weld. Check this: http://www.geocities.../weldedbar.html

I say do the Teg front brakes, or 88-91 CRX DX/Si. Do the SS lines. I say rear Teg brakes are a waste of time and money. I would get the HF rear drums and back plates if you can find them and afford them.

As far as the ecu and injectors go, you prolly won't get much out of them until you get throttle body opened up, header, 2 inch exhaust. They are relatively cheap, though, so try them if you want to and see what you think. I know some who like the Teg stuff, and some who don't.

I'd also suggest a rulebook. You're definitely going to CSP, and beyond if you get Teg brakes. HF drums are legal in CSP.

Another site you may want to check out is: http://members.aol.c...esky/solo2.html

[Krispy]

I really don't think the TEG ECU will help untill you start getting into major engine mods.  Until then it is a waste of time.  On my mildly tuned engine the teg ECU actually lost HP, and the extra RPM  above the SI rev limitor is useless since the power curve falls so quickly by that point.  Your better to short shift and use the torque of this engine.  Yes, it DOES have torque. Mighty torque.

PS, i think the rev limitor on a Si is 6700rpm and teg is 7200rpm.  Thats just a guess, i really can't remember.  Honda tachs don't seem to be very accurate in certin situations, but it really doesn't matter.  You should be concentrating on driving,  If your on the rev limiter for too many beats then short shift next time and all will be fine.

[87CrxSiRacer]

i saw on the solo 2 site and a couple of others that an 85 prelude throttle body was being used...will that throttle body bolt up to the si civic/crx motor?