245 replies to this topic

[firstgencrx]

Thread closed, new thread here


Hello all!

I have taken a new direction for my 1st gen CRX project, and that's what this new build thread will be about. My plan is to make the build MUCH more simple for me. The main reason for the direction change is I have started to build another car from the ground up that's going to take much more of my time. Project RexRod is still something I would love to do, and I may do later, but I know there just isn't enough time to work on both cars at the level of ambition I would love to do.

Sorry if my direction change disappointed anybody. Just rest assured, I am personally the most disappointed.

So here is my "short list" direction of change for Project Zippy! (my wife named the new project):

1. I have the car completely stripped down to the bare uni-body hanging on the rotisserie, so a complete rebuild or repair of anything broken or worn out is definitely in order.

2. Because I already purchased a good low miles JDM H22A for the original project, I will use the H for my engine swap. The engine will go up front though, not in the back like originally planned for RexRod.

3. Because she will move a bit faster, I plan on some kind of bigger brake system.

4. I am also going to try and make any improvements and upgrades to the suspension that I can to help make it handle better. That would include any frame stiffeners and bracing where possible.

5. I would like to see if I can stuff a little more tire under her if I can. May not be possible, but I will try.

The car won't have the really cool and mean stance RexRod would have had, but it will still be super fun to drive, especially with the torque of the H under the hood.

As I start this project, the biggest concern I have is how the H22 will effect the handling of the car. We all know already these little cars have a not-so-ideal front to rear weight ratio, and putting a much bigger motor up front will only make it worse. I plan on losing/moving as much weight up front as I can to help.

So my first big question is how much more does the H22/tranny really weigh compared to the original EW/tranny combination?

To find out, I started to scrounge around in my junk pile and I pulled out some old scales I had picked up years ago for "who knows what reason." I am a big junk collector.

It turns out, I might be able to use these scales as "wheel scales" if I am careful. What I found are four flat scales with one readout:


And one lone load cell I can use to make a engine hoist scale.


It's the lone load cell above I am most interested in at the moment, because I should be able to make it into a scale I can use with a chain to weigh stuff hanging from the engine hoist..... like an engine!

The load cell says it's rated to 200kg's. That works out to 440.9 lbs. Hmmm, not bad. I wish they were twice that much, but hey, I can't complain, the scales were free! (well, almost free) Found them lying in the bottom of a dumpster.

So I'm going to make a holder for the single load cell, and see if I can take some weight measurements of the two engines I have. At the same time, I am going to start to get the H22 ready for the car by cleaning it up, replacing the timing belt, water pump, paint it, etc.... While I am cleaning it up, I will try and put it on some kind of a diet as well.

I am curious to see how much different the weight really is between these two engine/tranny combos.

Take care all!

David

EDIT: I'm going to try and start a table of contents early before this thread gets too far along. If it ends up being too big to be here, I'll move it later. Thanks everyone for your ideas!!

Project Zippy Table of Contents:

H22 Weight loss/shift ideas and load cell completion: H22 Weight Loss/Shift Ideas
H22 Actual Weight Loss Data: H22 Weight Loss Data
H22 Balance Shaft Delete Part 1: Balance Shaft Delete Part 1
H22 Balance Shaft Delete Part 2: Balance Shaft Delete Part 2
Pedal Assembly Brace and Dimple Dies: Pedal Assembly Brace and Dimple Dies
Honda Engine/Trans weight combos (Thanks Brandon!!!): Honda Engine and Transmission Weight Combos
Motor Mounts Part 1: Motor Mounts Part 1
Motor Mounts Part 2: Motor Mounts Part 2
Motor Mounts Part 3: Motor Mounts Part 3
Motor Mounts Part 4: Motor Mounts Part 4
Motor Mounts Part 5: Motor Mounts Part 5

[strudel]

Other than weight I suspect your first hurdle will be the axles. Does the H22 have the same set up as an Integra ( half shaft system) or long/short like the CRX? Length of axle, fitting into a CRX or Teg hub, spline size, etc. Just throwing out some possibilities to consider. Doesn't this engine sit slanted rearwards somewhat compared to a D or B? Is there enough room in the front, depth wise? You'll figure it out in any case. JS

[firstgencrx]

Other than weight I suspect your first hurdle will be the axles. Does the H22 have the same set up as an Integra ( half shaft system) or long/short like the CRX? Length of axle, fitting into a CRX or Teg hub, spline size, etc. Just throwing out some possibilities to consider. Doesn't this engine sit slanted rearwards somewhat compared to a D or B? Is there enough room in the front, depth wise? You'll figure it out in any case. JS

The axles will be no problem. I will use the Integra hubs and outer CV joints at the wheels, and use the inner Prelude CV joints and half-shaft at the engine/transmission. Once the engine is positioned in the front clip where I want it, I will fabricate my own custom length shafts between the outer and inner CV joints out of solid 4340 Chromoly steel bar stock. Once I am convinced the axles are right, I will send out the shafts I make for heat-treat. What is cool about this idea is the axles will be easily rebuilt later by just replacing the CV joint and boot that's worn out. Not as easy as getting a axle assembly from a parts house, but easy enough for someone handy with a set of hand tools.

As far as how the motor will sit up front, I have not a clue. I will figure it out as I start to mock up the motor and it's new engine mounts in the original chassis. If it turns out the intake manifold is too long and hits the firewall, I'll just fab up a new shorter intake so it all fits.

Clearance between the hood and valve cover is a concern I have. The H22 is a very tall motor. I might need to fab up some kind of "tasteful" bubble for the hood. We'll see.

David

[strudel]

Here's some interesting information on outer CV's. FWIW. The inners come off OK but according to the manual the outers do not. Or so it says. We did try to use a BFH to pound off the outers to no avail on one of my extra sets. There should be a circlip inside the joint that normally would compress and release. I did send a set of CRX axles to a fellow in AR but have not heard back whether he got them apart or not for his race car. The tech at the dealer said if worst comes to worst you remove the thingy the balls ride in and put a new one in. That was his opinion. The parts guy said there are none available but.... someone must have parts as the axle rebuilders must get them from somewhere. JS

[firstgencrx]

Here's some interesting information on outer CV's. FWIW. The inners come off OK but according to the manual the outers do not. Or so it says. We did try to use a BFH to pound off the outers to no avail on one of my extra sets. There should be a circlip inside the joint that normally would compress and release. I did send a set of CRX axles to a fellow in AR but have not heard back whether he got them apart or not for his race car. The tech at the dealer said if worst comes to worst you remove the thingy the balls ride in and put a new one in. That was his opinion. The parts guy said there are none available but.... someone must have parts as the axle rebuilders must get them from somewhere. JS

So far, I've been able to get all my Honda (Integra, CRX, CIVIC, Prelude) axles apart. And you are right, there is a clip at the end that you need to get passed to get the outer CV joint off the end of the center axle shaft. What I do after removing the boot is use two saw horses to get the outer CV joint off. I place the saw horses close together, just wide enough for the center axle shaft. Then I place the center axle shaft between the saw horses with the outer CV joint on top. I then lift the outer CV joint up and bring it down real hard onto the saw horse cross boards. The outer CV joint snaps off every time. The wood cross braces of the saw horses also keep from marking up or damaging the outer joint. I hope that made sense.

As far as center axles go, most larger CV shops can make them in house. The smaller shops can buy them as well from the bigger outfits. One of the best info sources I have found on the net for all of the individual parts for a CV axle is a company called EMPI.
http://www.empius.com/

They have great online catalogs you can download for some really great reference material about CV joints. I don't think you can buy from them directly, well maybe if you bought a large enough order. But they have great info for someone wanting to know more about the CV axle world.

An example of how the catalog helped me, I found out the outer CV joint on the 86-89 Integra is also the same for a 89 prelude, and one of the Accords (I can't remember right off hand which one). Well when you go looking on ebay for an outer CV joint, they are always cheaper if they are listed for the Prelude or Accord. A few months ago, I snatched up a half dozen outer CV joints that will keep my cars going for a long time. I also never paid more than $10 bucks plus shipping for them. They come with the grease and a boot. In most cases, the outer CV joint is the only thing you need to replace when it comes time to repair a set of CV axles.

Hope that all helped.

David

[rpr]

Sounds like an interesting project. What I really want to know is, what were you doing at the bottom of a dumpster?

[firstgencrx]

Sounds like an interesting project. What I really want to know is, what were you doing at the bottom of a dumpster?

There used to be a scrap electronics company here in Fort Collins named Nelson Metals. They don't exist anymore, not in their original form, but what they used to do is buy scrap from all the high-tech companies in the area like HP, Teledyne, Advanced Energy, LSI Logic, you get the idea. Well...... I used to score on the coolest stuff! They would store all the junk in dumpsters, no trash, just scrap gear. Anywho, $1 a pound no mater what it was. I scored a $40,000 dollar oscilloscope that way one day! The scope didn't work, but I've got a friend who is a 35 year black art analog guy at Agilent. Together we fixed it. The scope being HP gear didn't hurt our efforts any either.

Vacuum pumps, steppers and servos, ball screws and linear slides, tons of great stainless hardware, the scales you saw above, all kinds of electronic test gear that now lives on my bench, lots and lots of stuff my wife hates! I have to hide most of it from her. Oh well, she still loves me for building her a house. It is HER house, not mine.

I'm not a real dumpster diver. Just a tech scrap diver!

Ramble, ramble, ramble.

Take care,

David

[TheOdditie]

So thats who bought all the outer CV Joints off eBay!

Strudel, I didn't get the outer joints apart, but didn't really try. I just went ahead and swapped the inner cups and went with it. Still gotta fix the boot, its just held on by a regular hose clamp, which is too big to sit in the groove.

[strudel]

So thats who bought all the outer CV Joints off eBay!

Strudel, I didn't get the outer joints apart, but didn't really try. I just went ahead and swapped the inner cups and went with it. Still gotta fix the boot, its just held on by a regular hose clamp, which is too big to sit in the groove.

Good to hear. Now David has filled us all in on the best way to remove those critters. The set I still have i gave to my budding mechanic in law. They put them in a big vise and wailed on the ends and couldn't get them off. Mind, he has a penchant for using more energy than required!

Good info on the site for the CV's. I'll check it out. JS

[firstgencrx]

Update 4/25/08: Guess How Much an EW weighs?

I managed to finish up my load cell for the engine hoist this afternoon. Here are a few pics of what I did to make it work.

I first put some tape on the load cell to protect the strain gage inside and put a little plastic clamp on the cord. I then cut up some junk steel I had lying in the yard to make the ends:


Here is an end after welding:


And the assembled unit:


Then I looked around for some weight I could use to see if the load cell is even working. I used one of the other scales to measure the weight I collected. I stacked up two lathe chucks and two face plates with the chain I will use to make it heavy:


Of course the readout didn't work at first, what do you expect for something I found in the trash! But after a half hour or so on the bench, I got it to work. I know it is reading pretty close because I compared my weight to the digital bathroom scale I have upstairs in the house. How much weight did I collect?


I then transfered the chucks and face plates to the engine hoist where the new load cell was hanging. I used the same chain I also weighed from before:


The new engine hoist load cell reads three pounds low. Close enough for me:


So now I know the scale is working. Next is to weigh the engine and trans that came out of the car. The engine is a 1984 EW1 CVCC carburated 1.5 liter. I weighed the engine and trans without motor mounts, alternator still attached, fluids drained, and the exhaust manifold and down pipe where still on the engine. Here it is hanging from the hoist:


And the weight is ????:


Now I weighed the motor mounts separately and they came out to be 14lbs. 10oz. So if we want to, we could say the engine and trans with mounts, alternator, exhaust manifold and down pipe are about 315 pounds plus or minus 5 pounds. Probably more like 320 pounds if you take into account the 3 pounds my scale reads low and the 10 ounces from the motor mounts.

My next big project is to try and assemble an H22 that is as light as I can make it without going into too much work. Some of the ideas I have are:

H22 Weight Loss Ideas (and non-H22 weight loss/shift ideas)

1. Lighter flywheel (Done!)
2. Aluminum motor mounts (Using steel for strength)
3. Aluminum alternator bracket with smaller lighter stock EW alternator (Using EW alt with mount part of drivers side engine mount)
4. The intake manifold brace can be made out of aluminum
5. After market header and down pipe
6. Aluminum cold air intake
7. Remove/delete the balance shafts (Done!)
8. Build a new and lighter intake manifold
9. Lighten original harmonic damper
10. Convert from auto timing belt tensioner to manual (Done!)
11. Gun drill the half-shaft (Done!)
12. Move radiator to the back?
13. Move battery to the back
14. Remove front cast iron motor mount bracket (Done!)
15. Swap metal VSS for a plastic one (Done!)
16. Build aluminum oil pan with baffles?
17. New lower cross member (old one weighs approx 45 pounds with old tbars, minus steering rack)

Other non-diet tips:

1. Delete EGR (Done!)
2. Baffle oil pan for cornering
3. Use different ECU for future tuning (possibly a P72?)
4. ???

I am sure I will find a few more pounds somewhere.

The other things I can do is move the battery to the rear of the car and try to remove some weight from the front of the car. Maybe I can build some fiberglass parts in place of the steel. Who knows.

Anywho, at least with the load cell I have some way to know if I am getting anywhere with the weight loss.

Take care all!

David

[zakats]

http://www.redpepper...showtopic=37820

[DEIVIONCRX]

Delete the H22 Ballance shaft and save a good bit weight about 20lbs, and gain a bit of power. Kaizenspeed makes a kit that you no doubt could copy in a few mins.

The intake manfold idea is good, the stock IAB intake manifolds are heavy and a good bit of power can be made by deleting the 2ndary butterflys, you do loose a lil bit of torque, but the hp makes up for it. The EuroR H22 intake manifold is a very nice setup.

With the alternator route, see if a EW Alt is lighter than the stock H22. You shouldnt need the extra power from the H22 so any other alt should meet your power requirements so why not use it, if its lighter.

You will deffinatly need to Baffel the oil pan, the stock pans suck major ass(no baffles and basicly a ramp), and any bit of hard cornering will starve the engine and spin bearings. Alot of them will loose enough pressure to disable Vtec on hard corners.

A header will save you a good chunk of weight, but sadly the stock H22 header is very very good, a DC Sports or similar Mass produced header will not make any power and could possibly loose some. You need to either keep the stock header or step up to something like Hytech or SMSP.

Shave the un-used ribbs off of your stock crank pully and lighten/ballance it after that.

And whatever you do, block off the EGR, idk why but poor running conditions related to EGR were the number one problem with Preludes when i was at honda.

Thats all i can think of at the moment.

[zakats]

yeah it definitely wouldn't hurt to lose some tq for some hp on a h22 swap!

[firstgencrx]

http://www.redpepper...showtopic=37820

Zak,

Man! That's nasty! I can't believe someone would consider that a solution. Yikes! You would never see me do something like that.

Delete the H22 Ballance shaft and save a good bit weight about 20lbs, and gain a bit of power. Kaizenspeed makes a kit that you no doubt could copy in a few mins.

The intake manfold idea is good, the stock IAB intake manifolds are heavy and a good bit of power can be made by deleting the 2ndary butterflys, you do loose a lil bit of torque, but the hp makes up for it. The EuroR H22 intake manifold is a very nice setup.

With the alternator route, see if a EW Alt is lighter than the stock H22. You shouldnt need the extra power from the H22 so any other alt should meet your power requirements so why not use it, if its lighter.

You will deffinatly need to Baffel the oil pan, the stock pans suck major ass(no baffles and basicly a ramp), and any bit of hard cornering will starve the engine and spin bearings. Alot of them will loose enough pressure to disable Vtec on hard corners.

A header will save you a good chunk of weight, but sadly the stock H22 header is very very good, a DC Sports or similar Mass produced header will not make any power and could possibly loose some. You need to either keep the stock header or step up to something like Hytech or SMSP.

Shave the un-used ribbs off of your stock crank pully and lighten/ballance it after that.

And whatever you do, block off the EGR, idk why but poor running conditions related to EGR were the number one problem with Preludes when i was at honda.

Thats all i can think of at the moment.

Thanks for your weight loss ideas Brandon! I am going to add them to the list above from the earlier post. I will keep updating that one post as more ideas come in, and call it the "H22 weight loss" section. I might also make a new intake simply because I bet it would be half the weight of the original. The loss of torque might be less of an issue in such a light weight car.

Something else I thought of are those adjustable timing gears you see for the camshaft. If they are made of aluminum, they should be lighter than the stock steel ones. I might need them anyway after some of my mods to bring the engine back into some kind of useful tune.

What would be cool is if I could figure out some way to run the radiator in the back. It would have to be under the car, with air getting to it somehow. Hmmm......

Thanks!

David

[firstgencrx]

Brandon,

You are right about the d series alternator being smaller and lighter. According to this site, you can lose up to 6 pounds using there bracket. Of course, I would make my own bracket. Good call!
http://www.explicits...et/H22Aalt.html

I will also convert the auto timing belt tensioner over to the manual, which is said to be more reliable.

David