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Diy: Rear Spring Removal (&cut)


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#31
87crxdx

BAN? hhaha, u know what buddy.... u just joined and instead of introducing yourself and helping out with the community your saying we all know nothing and are dumb. if thats the case get the f*** out and find a new forum with your own kind... laugh.gif laugh.gif im not kiddding

#32
dirtyass1

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ok......lets restart this. im dan. im new. i think cutting springs is the wrong way to go. get some springs that will sit flat in their seats. mr. 86crxdx do you know me? im not kidding either. watch your mouth thats not nice....my kind? dude ive fixed more cars then you can fathum..... ive been a tech for 7 years now and have made more money in a week then your family makes in a month........fuckin ricer...you know enough to be dangerous. just cause youve been here forever, doesnt mean you know shit. i dont need to make friends....im a dick. get over it.

and i didnt say ALL of you are dumb....but if you think cutting springs is ok then your dumb, and im ok with that. and so should you. community.....dude this is not the disney channel.....

#33
phatboycrxhf

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you dont make more then me in a month tongue.gif try 10.000 a month cleared succa lol but if you can beat that your the man lol i havent been really working for months and still have monies in my pocket to get you momma to come over laugh.gif tongue.gif i'm just kidding about the momma thing or am i ? ph34r.gif lol ,but really man just relax and enjoy the site and the people here wink.gif i learn something every day from these guys .But if you know everything why did you join the site ? most do to learn and make freinds and seriously i dont want to be your freind ,not with a additude like that no sir not going to happen laugh.gif

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#34
TheOdditie

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Awww...arguing on internet...you always assume things about the other person behind the screen before you really know anything about them. This is where most arguements go wrong.

Ok, fine, your opinion is you think cutting springs is just out right dumb and everyone can afford to go buy a set of good springs. This works if you have the money.

Now for those of us that don't have the money, cutting springs is our only option. The biggest thing about it, is how we go about cutting them. Those that don't have the patience to do some research and some thinking...they end up doing it the dumb way and constantly bounce down the road. But for those that can think about cutting metal and the different ways to cut metal, can find a way to cut the spring without heating up so much of the spring to cause all the bounciness.

If your not willing to open your mind to different alternatives that still work...thats your own problem. No need to call the rest of us idiots, or insulting us by saying you have more money than others.

Just my 2cents, have a nice day! smile.gif
Tony

#35
Ryma

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Pics dont worky.

#36
Slammed

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Pics not worky and what other springs could i use that just drop on and lower the car approx 2"??

Thnx,
Jay
The Orient Academy....


#37
EuphoricBlue

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QUOTE (Slammed @ Jul 26 2009, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pics not worky and what other springs could i use that just drop on and lower the car approx 2"??

Thnx,
Jay


Wow, you're looking at a thread that is 5 years old and has been brought back to life before it seems. I'm not surprized pics don't work.

Unless you buy something aftermarket you really won't find much to just drop in and lower the car, especially 2". Our cars are so light that most all OEM springs will not compress much, and actually raise the back end.

Spending the money on some Groun Control coilovers would really be your best bet.


Also, remember that when you chop the spring the spring rate goes UP (stiffer) So the more you cut, the less the srings settle, the rougher the ride becomes.

#38
Slammed

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It may be 5yrs old but its a sticky tongue.gif ppl need to know these things lol

i dont think there are any uk stockists that sell the ground controls, if there are any cheap aftermarket spring setups about then would be ideal.
The Orient Academy....


#39
badpenny

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I believe zakats has a thread on cut RSX springs somewhere.


Its a sticky, you can always bump a sticky.
Honda, because it's hard to look baller in your mom's Volvo.Posted Image 
The entire tool selection at Sears or the contents of a Snap-On truck will do you no good if you do not know how to use them.

#40
psychoboy

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QUOTE (brando @ Mar 18 2011, 07:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
do it right or do it twice


OR,

whatever you do, do it right the first time.

QUOTE
cutting springs is just not a good idea at all no matter what. i have done it a couple times and even using the cold saws at work it wouldn't work, they end up at impropper lengths and uneven from eachother.


so, because you are incapable of producing satisfactory results, nobody can?

(and the fact that you are distinguishing between a cold saw (toothed blade) and a hot saw (carbide blade) merely proves you don't have the first clue about the topic....it's little wonder you didn't succeed)


QUOTE
the eibach springs may be progressive but they still work and are better than a hack job spring that wont perform.


can you describe this lack of performance? specifically...without generic hipster excuses?

QUOTE
ricer mods are ricer mods, no matter how you look at it. the bouncy ness alsp comes from the fact that you kill your stock struts which arent ment to handle lowered vehicles.


actually, in most cases the bounciness comes from a multitude of factors. dead shocks are dead shocks. dead shocks on cut springs are dead shocks in a new location. dead shocks on brand new eibachs or ground controls or JdM HaWtpRo X are still dead shocks.

lesson learned: spend money on shocks? sure. that's where your ride is.

most people who cut springs don't trim the bumpstomps....the bounciness preventS kidney dislocationness. force them to hold up the car...YOU cause bounciness.
most people who cut springs don't reclock their control arm bushings. those aren't slip fits (well, they aren't supposed to be). lower the car...twist the bushings...increase effective spring rate...cause bounciness.
most people who cut springs don't check compression clearances. hammer a control arm into the body (not the 3 gen civic, obviously) and your gonna feel some bounciness (infinite spring rate = ride is in your sidewalls).
most people who cut springs don't validate the compressed length of their shock bodies or their allowable travel. bottom out the shock (or force it to operate at the ragged end of its travel) and you cause bounciness.

oddly enough, i've seen dozens of people buy brand new equipment, fail to do the things i listed above, and end up with a car that rides (and performs) like hammered dog poop (but since they paid for it....their butt dyno tells them it's the best thing they've ever driven)


lesson learned: install is important. knowing what you are doing is, too.

QUOTE
so if you do do this you are going to have to buy the struts anyways which cost money so why not just pick up a set of springs and do it right



springs are springs. they don't grow in the wild. they are all cut from a (sometimes theoretically) larger spring. you can't easily build shocks, you can really easily build better springs.

most performance springs are a higher spring rate than your stockers. the prevailing theory* says that cutting coils increases spring rate. in my experience, a trimmed spring feel like it tightens up about where you'd expect to find a performance spring.

most performance springs are smaller in overall height than your stocks. the laws of physics say that cutting coils decreases overall height. in my experience, a trimmed spring lowers the car exactly as much as the trimmer wants.



a few notes:
if you are going to cut springs, use a cut off wheel, chop saw, or a cold saw. spring steel is tempered steel. heating and cooling it can soften the temper or take it away entirely. cutting it quickly with a carbide blade can distemper the very end (last 1/2" or so) of the wire....but since that section is sitting in a cup, you weren't using it for spring anyway. if you have little springs or big arms, you can use some bolt cutters and do it just like honda does. DO NOT USE A TORCH (unless you are a metalsmith with good torch control)

if you are going to cut springs, go slow, and just do a little at a time. you can always cut it shorter, it's damned hard to cut it longer.

if you are going to cut springs, realize that you are removing weight capacity as well. while prevailing theory* ignores this fact, physics doesn't. another reason to sneak up on the final height.

if you are going to cut springs, recognize that you are asking each remaining coil to do more work. this will cause even the most well worn springs to settle. i've seen cut spring cars lose another 1/2" 6 months down the road.

if you are going to cut springs, make sure your shocks can compress enough to take advantage of the new heights. you might need to look at extended top hats to let the shaft ride where it wants to while the car rides where you want it to.

if you are going to cut springs, try to make the same cut on either side. also try to mimic the factory ends as best you can. the 3rd gen rear spring is coned at the bottom. don't cut that end. it'll never seat correctly on the axle. cut the top coils. cut them square to the wire, grind a flat edge on the end, just like the stock ends. if you want are tempted to tweak the new last coil to sit flatter than it wants to (like the original last coil did), you can....but it's not going to make much difference. it'll probably give you another 1/4" or 1/2" of drop.




*some of you might notice my use of the term "prevailing theory". my experience leads me to believe that the generally accepted concepts of spring rate increase due to cutting might be accurate, but not complete. every source i can find agrees: the length of the wire in the coil is important. every formula i can find to determine the rate (usually supplied with those same sources) effectively ignores the length of the wire. at the very best, they treat a coil spring as a wound torsion bar. torsion bar spring rates increase as they get shorter (twisting), the prevailing theory says coil springs do, too. however, the math that goes with the theory does not account for either the rake of the coils or the overall length of the spring, all it recognizes is the diameter and number of the coils (which are mathematically straightened out and joined together). i can't find anyone who will disagree with the prevailing theory, but i also can't find anyone who can generate a formula that can differentiate between two VERY different springs.

I feel that the lack of weight capacity exhibited by the cut spring indicates an action unique to coil springs that prevents them from being mathematically modeled as wound torsions.

i could be wrong, and i would gladly accept being proven as such.

Edited by psychoboy, 18 March 2011 - 11:55 AM.

Your inability to understand my position in no way invalidates the veracity of my opinion

#41
EuphoricBlue

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QUOTE (brando @ Mar 20 2011, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
all of these posts in this thread saying that its fine to cut springs proves that i am the only one who has ever set up a real race suspension setup. have you ever even heard of corner balancing? do you realize that i am a metal-smith/metal worker and i have taken more metallurgy classes than everyone on here combined (more than likely) i have more books and education on this matter than everyone who has posted.

you will not ever get within specs trying to cut a spring, Honda's are among the most unbalanced cars on the road. you can not even see anything less than .008", maybe you can see the gap in a mic but not just by eye. therefor you will not cut the spring to the correct height and your car will be unbalanced. net even taking into the fact that factory spring rates are usually all over the place and shitty as it is.

basically if you can not afford $150 for a set of used lifetime warranty performance springs then stop trying or sell off the shit you dont need on the car

The only thing these posts prove is that you're missing the point.


If you tell me this makes the car unsafe or throws the car "off balance" you deserve an e-smack.

No one said this is the right way to do it or that it's the performance choice. But it IS a reasonable option for a STREET CAR, provided you're keeping things within reason.

What I did here is remove the progressive portion of the spring. This leaves load limits almost unchanged since the primary spring section is unchanged. My car sits even, and my shocks have not blown. (Again, if you tell me a 1/8th inch coil cut difference is detrimental, you deserve a smack. You will neither feel nor see it.)

Results:
Lack of progressive coil made minor bumps (seams in the road) noticeable.
Large bump (speed bumps) absorption remained unchanged.
Ride height lowered about 1" (Car looks normal now, and not as if the ass end is lifted)
Car does NOT bottom out in the rear, shocks did not blow up even years later. (I don't know about you, but I don't load motorbikes in my CRX. I don't know how you can bottom out the rear)

"Basically" Your points fall under the same category as Scott's argument for 13" rims and drum brakes. While true, they are irelevant to a street car.
(PS: Sorry Scott tongue.gif, but I think I've voiced that opinion before.)

#42
kaymo

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QUOTE (brando @ Mar 20 2011, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
all of these posts in this thread saying that its fine to cut springs proves that i am the only one who has ever set up a real race suspension setup.


no, it proves you dont read things well. the ONLY one who has EVAR set up a REAL race suspension huh? wow you got some explaining to do for the ACTUAL racers that frequent these forums... they might have something to say about that...


QUOTE (brando @ Mar 20 2011, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
have you ever even heard of corner balancing? do you realize that i am a metal-smith/metal worker and i have taken more metallurgy classes than everyone on here combined (more than likely) i have more books and education on this matter than everyone who has posted.


have you even heard how old this thread is? do you realize you brought something back from the dead? why would we realize you are a self-proclaimed metal smith? why do you think you have more education than people you have never met or talked to? are you psychic as well?


QUOTE (brando @ Mar 20 2011, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
you will not ever get within specs trying to cut a spring, Honda's are among the most unbalanced cars on the road.


huh? hondas among the most unbalanced cars on the roaD? are you high? have you even driven a honda? why are you here?


QUOTE (brando @ Mar 20 2011, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
therefor you will not cut the spring to the correct height and your car will be unbalanced. net even taking into the fact that factory spring rates are usually all over the place and shitty as it is.


factory spring rates all over the place? if you are so smart about metal, then how is it all different if made from the same bits of metal in the same fashion? and its quite doubtful that slightly off springs are suddenly going to make your car not go round a corner predictably. too many people are running around with cut springs.

QUOTE (brando @ Mar 20 2011, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
basically if you can not afford $150 for a set of used lifetime warranty performance springs then stop trying or sell off the shit you dont need on the car



oh yeah so you think you know about setting up a REAL race suspension because you order some eibach springs? get over yourself man... there are plenty of people on cut springs, and never have these problems you are talking about.



it sounds like you need to chill out, relax, and do some reading. this board is full of homemade stuff that works, so before you come on here and start bashing stuff you obviously know nothing about, shut your mouth before you make yourself look any dumber.
QUOTE (kjeffery @ Apr 17 2009, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yet again Scott, you have all the answers

QUOTE (cbstdscott @ Apr 17 2009, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No. All the answers are in the Kakabox build thread.

QUOTE (Lymitliss @ May 26 2009, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ohh yeah I guess that makes sense. King Kaymo has all the answers :lol:

#43
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Honda installed cut wagon springs in a 1986 Civic Si way back in 1986, and pulled over 1 G with the car.
The car also had Mugen 21 mm front and rear sway bars.
Stock front torsion bars, and Yokohama tires.

Apparently Honda thought cut springs were OK.

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#44
kaymo

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i still think you arent reading things. madkore just told you, honda used cut wagon springs on a race car. race cars are performance oriented are they not?

i think you are thinking about those who have chopped springs and are almost dragging the ground, or those who have heated their springs. neither of those are acceptable methods, but the ones described here are more than adequate. if you have a very light car (IE stripped) and stock torsion bars, aftermarket springs would probably make you car handle worse.

also some people do not want the harshness of stiffer springs, but want to be a touch lower than stock (which is pretty high IMO)

or you could be racing on a budget, possibly even a FORCED budget like 24 hours of lemons race.

i bought a parts integra for 100 dollars that had the fenderwells sitting on the tires. they had torched the springs, but did them one side of the spring at a time... they were actually SHIFTED to the side.
QUOTE (kjeffery @ Apr 17 2009, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yet again Scott, you have all the answers

QUOTE (cbstdscott @ Apr 17 2009, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No. All the answers are in the Kakabox build thread.

QUOTE (Lymitliss @ May 26 2009, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ohh yeah I guess that makes sense. King Kaymo has all the answers :lol:

#45
EuphoricBlue

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QUOTE (brando @ Mar 20 2011, 08:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i am not meaning to step on anyones toes here and you reading too far into my post. sure you can do it and it will work but its just not worth it. another option is to use spring clamps.

when a spring is weighted at say 100 lbs. and has 4 coils that means that every coil it has is rated at 25lbs. when you take out 1 coil it drops it to a 75# spring.


1) Sure it is, best dillar I didn't spend. biggrin.gif
2) This isn't right. Spring rate goes up as you cut the spring. The reason the spring rate goes up is because when you reduce coil count you need to compress each coil more to get the same amount of travel.
There are 3 things that effect spring rate. Wire thickness, thicker wire=higher rate. Coil diameter, broader coil=lower rate. Coil count, less coils=higher rate.