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Holy Sphericals Batman!


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#31
kakabox

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Interesting. No bind through the arc...that indeed is good news. You could have a fore-aft sliding bushing/bearing for the radius arm and eliminate the tbar arm bending. That would be easy to design, esp w/the small amt of fwd/aft translation. The radial arms not going anywhere unless the tbar arm decides to go fwd, so, there wouldn't be any danger of the end of the radial arm coming out. Not w/the 'schkookum' tbar retaining device I know you'll design! wink.gif

If the results are the same w/the real spherical bearing instld (at this point I don't think see no reason they won't), this bearing/bushing system will effectively reduce the spring rate required in front. Now none of the tbar's spring rate will be used to overcome the bind that is in the OE system. The ride will now become more compliant and smoother too. The tires will now be better at following the contours of the road; be able to stay in contact w/the ground offering more control/traction. Same thing that I immediately noticable when I installed the rod-ended rear trailing arms on the K'box. The dampers, stabar, and tbars will now work more efficiently...no more spikes in spring rates through the suspension travel! biggrin.gif

I experience this very thing when I installed a 'Maximum Motorsports' front K-member and coil-overs on my Fox body Mustang. The MM K-member moved the spring that in the OE system is adjacent to the A-arm pivot to being concentric w/the strut (coil-overs). That eliminated the front bind that was caused by the OE spring position deflecting the A-arm pivot causing it to bind. The Mustang 'rode' like a completely different car after (and handled like one too!).

I'm excited about this! If everything tests out you can count on me being a customer.

Well done David! cool.gif

#32
firstgencrx

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QUOTE (kakabox @ Nov 1 2009, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If the results are the same w/the real spherical bearing instld (at this point I don't think they will be), this bearing/bushing system will effectively reduce the spring rate required in front.


Thanks J,

The mock-up I tested today has a spherical bearing at the rear joint on the lower control arm, and can not move for or aft, just like the final system will be. The only difference with the final system will be a spherical bearing at the front end of the torsion bar instead of a Delrin bushing. The system with both joints converted to spherical will behave exactly as it does now. It might actually be a little smoother, only because the Delrin bushing I'm using at the front end of the torsion bar in my mock-up has zero clearance, so there's a tiny bit of friction to move it.

I'm confused as to why you think it will not be the same?

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#33
EPcivic

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Glad to see it works. I'm definately interested in these parts. I'm planning on replacing my radius rods this winter as a preventitive maintenance - replacing the urethane ES bushings with sphericals would be a good thing to do while I'm in there.


-Chris


#34
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Awesome work and I am very eager to see how this turns out.
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#35
kakabox

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QUOTE (firstgencrx @ Nov 1 2009, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks J,

The mock-up I tested today has a spherical bearing at the rear joint on the lower control arm, and can not move for or aft, just like the final system will be. The only difference with the final system will be a spherical bearing at the front end of the torsion bar instead of a Delrin bushing. The system with both joints converted to spherical will behave exactly as it does now. It might actually be a little smoother, only because the Delrin bushing I'm using at the front end of the torsion bar in my mock-up has zero clearance, so there's a tiny bit of friction to move it.

I'm confused as to why you think it will not be the same?

David

SHIT, I meant to say "at this point I don't see why they would NOT be same"...I expect the results to be the same.

...once again: "sorry for confuse"

#36
strudel

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#37
firstgencrx

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QUOTE (kakabox @ Nov 1 2009, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SHIT, I meant to say "at this point I don't see why they would NOT be same"...I expect the results to be the same.

...once again: "sorry for confuse"


Oh good. wink.gif

I really depend on that super mind of yours to catch stuff. We all do! laugh.gif

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#38
kakabox

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QUOTE (firstgencrx @ Nov 1 2009, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Now, I did one more test. I removed the nut from the back of the lower control arm stem, and measured how far the stem would move axially in it's bushing when the lower control arm is moved into full bump and drop position. You can imagine that when the torsion bar arm is level, the stem is positioned the farthest rearward. Pushing the arm down and up, makes the stem move out of the bushing, or forward because the torsion bar arm pulls it out due to the fact it doesn't want to bend.

What I found is at full bump, the stem moves 0.020" forward. At full drop, the stem moves 0.18" forward. Less axial movement on the drop is probably because I move an extra 1.5" at full bump to compensate for shorter bodied struts. This make the distance between a level arm to full bump farther, than a level arm to full drop.

So when you say "lower control arm" are you talking about what Honda calls the 'radius arm'?

On re-reading, I believe you removed the nut from the radius arm pivot shaft and measured how far the torsion bar arm "stem" moved axially...?

I thought you were talking about the radius arm pivot shaft moving fore/aft, not the tbar arm "stem"...Ok, I get it!

Scratch my radius arm sliding bushing/bearing idea!


#39
firstgencrx

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QUOTE (kakabox @ Nov 1 2009, 08:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So when you say "lower control arm" are you talking about what Honda calls the 'radius arm'?

On re-reading, I believe you removed the nut from the radius arm pivot shaft and measured how far the torsion bar arm "stem" moved axially...?

I thought you were talking about the radius arm pivot shaft moving fore/aft, not the tbar arm "stem"...Ok, I get it!

Scratch my radius arm sliding bushing/bearing idea!



You got it right the first time.

OK, so what I call the lower control arm (the arm that has the ball joint on the end of it), Honda calls the radius arm. The other arm I call the torsion bar arm. That is the arm that bolts to the "radius arm" and the front end of the torsion bar slips into.

The radius arm shaft or stem at the back is what moves for and aft when I remove the big nylock holding it in place on it's spherical bearing. This behavior is totally expected because it moves through a small arc. The amount it move for and aft is very small. But when it's locked down the amount it bends the torsion bar arm for and aft is only approximately +/- 20 thou measured out at the ball joint. These would translate into caster changes. It does this exact same behavior with the rubber bushings as well. The arm bends much more than that under heavy braking with the original rubber bushings. The stem on the back of the torsion bar arm does not move for and aft, just rotates in the Delrin bushing.

Everything is as expected.

Vocabulary is important. blink.gif

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#40
toxicshit

very nice results.. and good info, as always biggrin.gif

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#41
kakabox

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QUOTE (firstgencrx @ Nov 1 2009, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You got it right the first time.

The radius arm shaft or stem at the back is what moves for and aft when I remove the big nylock holding it in place on it's spherical bearing. This behavior is totally expected because it moves through a small arc. The amount it move for and aft is very small. But when it's locked down the amount it bends the torsion bar arm for and aft is only approximately +/- 20 thou measured out at the ball joint. These would translate into caster changes. It does this exact same behavior with the rubber bushings as well. The arm bends much more than that under heavy braking with the original rubber bushings. The stem on the back of the torsion bar arm does not move for and aft, just rotates in the Delrin bushing.
Everything is as expected.

Vocabulary is important. blink.gif

David

blink.gif Ok, so I did get it right on my first post...

...then back to my sliding radius arm shaft idea...why can't you take the fore-aft translation of the radius arm shaft out there? Having a 'male-female relation' in the spherical bearing at the end of the radius arm shaft would eliminate the bending load on the tbar arm.

Although +/-0.020" at the balljoint end isn't much at all...probably not worth the extra wear and tear a sliding shaft would have on the spherical bearing.

#42
firstgencrx

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QUOTE (kakabox @ Nov 2 2009, 07:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Although +/-0.020" at the balljoint end isn't much at all...probably not worth the extra wear and tear a sliding shaft would have on the spherical bearing.


Exactly my thoughts. I've seen 1G/3G's launch without traction bars, and the front tires violently bounce for and aft more than an inch when they start to hop. And remember, it's the torsion bar arm (the flat one) that's hardly flexing, not the radius arm.

If it will help you more, open your dial calipers to 0.020" and look at it. It's only the thickness of 5 sheets of paper.

I'm going for the KISS rule! laugh.gif

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#43
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QUOTE (kakabox @ Nov 2 2009, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
blink.gif Ok, so I did get it right on my first post...

...then back to my sliding radius arm shaft idea...why can't you take the fore-aft translation of the radius arm shaft out there? Having a 'male-female relation' in the spherical bearing at the end of the radius arm shaft would eliminate the bending load on the tbar arm.

Although +/-0.020" at the balljoint end isn't much at all...probably not worth the extra wear and tear a sliding shaft would have on the spherical bearing.



I think designing in fore-aft play would be a bad idea. The whole point of switching to spherical joints is to eliminate play and binding. The fore-aft play of the stock bushings is a cause of wheel hop, we want to minimize that deflection. It's also a whole lot different to have play that progressively loads up in a rubber or poly bushing, vs. instantly bottoming out a spherical joint. Shock loading is a bad thing for all sorts of reasons.

-Chris

#44
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QUOTE (EPcivic @ Nov 2 2009, 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think designing in fore-aft play would be a bad idea. The whole point of switching to spherical joints is to eliminate play and binding. The fore-aft play of the stock bushings is a cause of wheel hop, we want to minimize that deflection. It's also a whole lot different to have play that progressively loads up in a rubber or poly bushing, vs. instantly bottoming out a spherical joint. Shock loading is a bad thing for all sorts of reasons.

-Chris

Yeah, agreed.

#45
firstgencrx

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OK, I think I have not been very clear in explaining what is happening with this system, so I'm going to try and explain this as best I can. tongue.gif I just wish you guys where standing next to me with the car on it's back, and I know you would understand in a second what's up. wink.gif

I've been a little miss-leading with my explanations, simply because I was trying to keep things as simple as I could. In the spirit of keeping things clearer, I'm going to call the arm with the integral ball joint the radius arm (that's what Honda calls it, Thanks Kaka!), and the remaining arm in this system the torsion bar arm, or tbar arm for short.

First, the dominant axis of rotation in this system is the torsion bar axis. The reason for this is simple. The bushing out on the end of the torsion bar is 10 times more stiff, or non-flexible compared to the rubber bushing at the rear end of the radius arm. Plus, the torsion bar is a very strong member in this system. What this means is most of the compensating that needs to take place in this system is at that rear radius arm joint, and the twisting of the tbar arm.

Now imagine if you could magically let the joint at the rear of the radius arm float in mid air, it would rotate about an arc whose radius would be the distance to the center of axis of the torsion bar. Here is a REALLY CRAPPY picture of what I mean tongue.gif :



If you look at the picture above, the lower drawing shows an end view of the assembly (I know, I draw really crappy). I drew the path that the rear stem of the radius arm would follow if it was not connected to anything as the tbar arm rotated (dotted line/arc with arrow heads at the ends). It follows a path around the torsion bar axis of rotation.

But, because the stem of the radius arm in our system is held in place by the spherical bearing, or rubber bushing, when the tbar arm rotates about the torsion bar axis, the radius arm tips at the spherical bearing, which also causes the torsion bar arm to twist as well. This tipping also causes a tiny length change (shows up as caster change) that draws the ball joint rearward (trigonometry).

Next I'll show some shots of the radius arm tipping when the tbar arm is rotated. Now I must warn you, I have rotated the tbar arm MUCH more than what really happens in real life, only to help illustrate what's going on. The real life angle the radius arm sees, and the tbar arm twists is less than +/- 2 degrees.

I show both the rear and front views of each exaggerated position. Because the spherical bearing is placed at the back of the radius arm stem in this mock-up, the front images show the tipping better. Also, remember, this car is upside down and I tried to get my camera angles as best as I could.

Front view of the radius arm tipping with tbar arm down:



Rear view with tbar arm still down. You can see it looks less tipped only because the distance from where we are looking is closer to the bearing:



Front view of radius arm tipping with tbar arm up:



And finally, rear view with tbar arm still up:



By putting a spherical bearing out at the end of the radius arm, the whole system just gets much smoother and there is little to no loading on the radius arms at all (especially the stem that slips into the rear bushing). The only things that sees "stress" if that's what you want to call it, is in the tbar arm. It will twist a little, and bend slightly to compensate for the length change due to the radius arms path, relative to the torsion bar arm. And, lucky for us, the tbar arm is designed to do just that. So I think everything is good. The tbar arm will bend back about 0.020" at the ball joint, and twist less than 2 degrees with this type of setup. The radius arm, especially the rear stem part of it, will see much less stress when it tips in it's shiny new spherical bearing. biggrin.gif

Unrelated side note: Because of the natural tipping of the radius arm in a system like this, I think you can see why I was so concerned before when I read that people where using solid Delrin bushings at the rear radius arm stem joint. I am still afraid that stem will see too much stress due to the natural tipping of the radius arm in that type of a system. Those Delrin bushings are trying to prevent the radius arm stem from tipping. blink.gif And that arm need to tip.

Whew! Did I do it? I hope I was clear enough that you guys and gals have a better idea of what I'm seeing here. Like I said above, I just know that if you where standing here, you would see what's really going on, and I think you would approve. cool.gif

Take care all!

David

P.S. My most sincerest apologies to J (kakabox) for being so gosh damn confusing! tongue.gif
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