80 replies to this topic

[zakats]

Here's what I have:
*stock GS-R bottom end
*b16 head milled unknown amount, estimated .005-.015 with a mild port job
*ITR cams with AEM adjustables and some OE B16
*Stock b17 intake manifold, I think it is a pr3
(also a full LS engine and spare P75 head if I wanted to mess with any of that bs)


Goals in order of importance:
*legit, reliable, and properly built for street use- never having to think twice about it's reliability
*Correctly rebuilt meaning proper procedures and precautions taken- balancing etc
*fairly good on gas (will depend heavily on tune of course but suggestions are welcomed)
*8 to 8.5 RPM red-line only on special occasion
*10-11.5:1 compression
*170+ whp


I'm trying to come up with an idea of exactly what I'd like to do with this engine and if it is worth the cost of building it "right" but I am having a hard time finding legitimate information to base my cost/benefit analysis.

Thanks in advance,
-zak

PARTS/COST LIST (in progress):
*B16/B20 oil pump $[email protected]
*gsr/itr head gasket $[email protected]
*gsr/itr piston rings $[email protected]
*head dowel pins $[email protected]
*thrust washers/rod bearings/crank bearings any color $[email protected] ~ Clevite $[email protected] ~ ACL?
*valve cover gasket set Fel Pro $[email protected]
*timing belt/tensioner $[email protected] ~ Gates $[email protected]
*Front and Rear main seal sets Fel Pro $[email protected]
*cam seals Fel Pro $[email protected] (head might already have new gaskets, waiting to receive head)
*valve stem seals Fel Pro $[email protected] (head might already have new gaskets, waiting to receive head)
*water pump $[email protected] ~ Gates $[email protected]
*ARP rod bolts $[email protected] shipped
*ARP head bolts for b18c5$[email protected] shipped
---------
Honda (mostly) parts option: $917+ most shipping not included
Mostly aftermarket "quality" parts, OE honda major parts option: $749 most shipping included
Let me know if I'm missing something!
(All Rockauto.com quotes include shipping, OE honda/acura parts do not)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Contingency/cheapo/minimalist plans:
---------
*ebay package deal NPR p73-AO, NPR rings, ACL/king bearing set $118
*JISengine full gasket set $58
*Honda HG $[email protected]
*water pump Gates $[email protected]
*timing belt/tensioner Gates $[email protected]
*head dowel pins $[email protected]
*ARP head bolts for b18c5$[email protected] shipped
---------
~$490 (quick mental math)
Optional:
*ARP rod bolts $[email protected] shipped
*B16/B20 oil pump $[email protected]

Edited by zakats, 04 November 2009 - 08:39 PM.

[DEIVIONCRX]

The Poor Mans Type R should be a reliable motor no problem.

The GSR bottom end is built to rev. The B16 Head can breath at high rpm. The CTR cams will make power as far as you want Stock redline of 9500ish.

PR3 intake should be a B16 i dont think the B17 was still labled PR3 but its possible. You deffinatly want a B16 or ITR style intake manifold with the largest throttle body you can get. Id probably just use whatever TB you have and send it off to Maxbore.

For reliablility. I would deffinatly use new OEM Rings, Bearings, and Oil Pump. ARP Headstuds and Rod Bolts. The OEM parts you wont have to worry about failing. And the ARP's you wont have to worry about beating on them.

For mild rebuild parts, id suggest some 88-91 PR3 B16 pistons, they will bump your compression to around 11.1:1. 92-95 P30's will put you at 11.3:1, and if you wana go nasty, the PCT B16B' Pistons will bump you to 11.7:1. Of course thoes numbers are figured quickly off the internet without your head/block shaving. And of course the dynamic compression ratio will differ with the cams.

The factory rods should be just fine with a N/A application. The ARP Rod bolts will ensure nothing comes apart at high rpm.

A lightweight flywheel is deffinatly a must for a N/A motor you want to rev.

After that, your going to need a really nice header, intake and exhaust. I would suggest SMS-P for the header. Their uncoated headers are damn reasonable for the power they produce, but id deffinatly paint them. A well designed 3" intake with a unrestrictive filter. And a 2.5" unrestrictive exhaust.

With the cams, compression, and good header, 170whp shouldnt be a problem. The only thing id probably look into doing if youve got some spare money towards the end of the build, is a set of aftermarket cams, the CTR cams are nice, but something like a Brian Crower Stage 2 or 3 will be better.

[84b18]

it looks like you have everything under control. you may want stiffer springs for the ctr cams. i also thing the pr-3 b16 pistons would be best and they would be compatible with you rotating assembly from the ls bottom end. what do you have plans for machine work? you could knife edge your crank, machine weight off the flywheel, or port n polish the head?

il be watching this like a hawk. i also need to build a new engine, unless i find a good deal for one already built.

[zakats]

couple things I left out:
*Pistons -I was thinking to have the engine bore'd over just a little (~.020) to rule out any wear issues unless, for the off chance, I decide to stick with the stock pistons
-Is using b16 pistons even possible on my (gsr) rods? as I understand the b16 rods have to be machined down to use b18c pistons and doing the opposite doesn't make sense to me (yet)
-I was thinking to use usdm ITR pistons for the reason above or JDM GSR

Question: I've ran a few compression calculators on a bunch of different variables and since I am ok with anything over 10:1, I am kinda considering keeping stock pistons to cut a lot of cost and allow for the motor to be done a lot faster than it would otherwise due to not wanting to dump a chunk of change out of my bank account all at once; I'm coming up with about 10.3:1 with the stock pistons/b16 head with .020 removed (which is about what I have/will have removed, more or less) and just shy of 10.5:1 with a smaller head gasket (I'm a little sketchy about using a thinner HG, I don't feel like it is the right way to get compression though it is tempting) Does this sound right to you?


*Flywheel, my bottom end came with a pretty slick little flywheel that doesn't look like it could weigh more than 9lbs at most (and of course I'll have it resurfaced)


I'm not looking to spend an exorbitant amount of money on the build as I am a cheapass but I do want the motor to come out 'properly' I don't see myself spending more than a grand over time on this... I'm thinking to spend about 200/month sourcing parts.

I speculate that I will go cheap on the accessories (non internal parts) for now, using parts that I already have or just wait longer to buy external stuff- intake/header/run on basemap

Looking for suggestions on the machine work I need to have done with/for this setup.. not sure about the benefit per cost of it all.

Thanks guys

[DEIVIONCRX]

I spent right at $1000 rebuilding my LS, not including performance parts. That was using mostly duralast, felpro parts, and OEM Rings, Bearings.

[84b18]

i think you are right about the pistons. i just thought for some reason your gsr block was bare and you were using the ls rotating assembly. but sense you are using the gsr bottom end i think you cant use the b16 pistons but i may be wrong. the head gasket question is what stumps me most as well, it seems everybody gives me a different answer about what the best one is. what type of thin HG were you thinking of using?

[zakats]

i think you are right about the pistons. i just thought for some reason your gsr block was bare and you were using the ls rotating assembly. but sense you are using the gsr bottom end i think you cant use the b16 pistons but i may be wrong. the head gasket question is what stumps me most as well, it seems everybody gives me a different answer about what the best one is. what type of thin HG were you thinking of using?

new OE honda

I could use my LS rotating assy and probably buy my friend's ctr or si pistons for pretty cheap I was leaning toward keeping with the GSR rods and crank for rev-ability and durability- I assume honda used the 87.2mm stroke in the gsr and itr rather than 89 for a reason... hmm

[DEIVIONCRX]

Yea, use the GSR crank for sure. The LS crank was made to make torque, not high rpm horsepower.

[zakats]

Waiting to hear back from this guy http://hondamarketpl...d.php?t=2570324 ~170 shipped for " new 11.5:1 CR" RS machines 81.5mm pistons and hastings rings

$118 for "usdm itr" NPR pistons, rings, and acl or king main/rod bearings and thrust washers seller claims 10.2:1 CR though if they are usdm itr pistons my calculations put my setup at 11.51:1 ehhhh
http://cgi.ebay.com/...SRCHQ3aUSQ3a101

$60 .25 (inches? millimeters?) over bore usdm, OE Honda GSR pistons with wrist pins should yield 10.4:1 ish
http://cgi.ebay.com/...SRCHQ3aUSQ3a101

$98 NPR usdm ITR pistons/rings/pins resulting in, as said above, about 11.5:1 cr

[84b18]

i believe your calculations are correct. another question i have is exactly what is the difference between the CTR and ITR pistons? i think the ITR would yield a lower comp then the CTR. i think i am leaning towards a ls v-tech considering i have a couple ls bottom ends. you are defenatly better off with the gsr short block im sure. what is a good rev limit for an ls bottom end b16 head and itr pistons?

[DEIVIONCRX]

Rev limit is determined by the bottom end. If its a LS bottom end, stick to the LS Redline.

[CSPCRX]

I am putting together parts for a similar build.
I have a B18C block like you but a USDM typeR head.
Using GSR knife edged crank and rods with ARP bolts.
I have CTR pistons because i want to get closer to the 220hp at the wheels mark.
I am also going to run my Skunk2 cams which will help get to that mark.
Sounds like you have everything you need. Not sure if ITR cams would yield more hp then the CTR cams since the CTRs are tuned for a 1.6L and the ITRs are tuned for a 1.8L. Have to check the lift and duration, its on the web, to tell.
Should have no trouble hitting the numbers you want. Infact I think you will exceed them. I got 162hp at the wheels out of a B16 that only had cams in it.

[zackspeed]

My friends motor has been together for 3 years now. We have had no problems out of it and it makes gobs of power to only be running a stock JDM Type R ecu.

97 GSR block and head. Head has been cleaned up and port matched.

Type R crank, Spoon balanced rods, USDM ITR pistons.

Type R exhaust cam and CTR intake. The CTR's 5 more degrees of duration makes quite a bit more mid range power. Compared to the ITR it does not feel as flat before vtec.

Supertech flat face race valves, race springs, and titanium retainers. We went this route with intentions of using bigger cams. Have not done that yet.

DC 4-2-1 header. There are way better products on the market these days.

Skunck2 many with stock GSR throttle body.

This setup has seen some where around 60k miles and is only getting stronger. My other friends JDM Type R in his EG is every bit as strong as this combination but does not have the power below 6k like the one above. The JDM motor is running a blox mani and 68mm throttle with a hitech header and skunk2 chip ecu.

The GSR build should be some where between 12.2 to 12.5 and it hasn't missed a beat.

So I say build it. But I will say buy good valve springs, dont skimp on your header, and its worth the extra money to get the whole rotating assembly balanced.

[zakats]

I am putting together parts for a similar build.
I have a B18C block like you but a USDM typeR head.
Using GSR knife edged crank and rods with ARP bolts.
I have CTR pistons because i want to get closer to the 220hp at the wheels mark.
I am also going to run my Skunk2 cams which will help get to that mark.
Sounds like you have everything you need. Not sure if ITR cams would yield more hp then the CTR cams since the CTRs are tuned for a 1.6L and the ITRs are tuned for a 1.8L. Have to check the lift and duration, its on the web, to tell.
Should have no trouble hitting the numbers you want. Infact I think you will exceed them. I got 162hp at the wheels out of a B16 that only had cams in it.

I'm still waiting for my friend to get back into town, so I have yet to find out all the particulars on the cams and such- he was building a pretty involved LS-V before his car was stolen and realized he didn't want a car that would surely get stolen in Houston!
I set my goal of 170 whp to be very conservative, depending on the compression ratio and cams I settle on, I am fairly confident that I will make a bit more than that

My friends motor has been together for 3 years now. We have had no problems out of it and it makes gobs of power to only be running a stock JDM Type R ecu.

97 GSR block and head. Head has been cleaned up and port matched.

Type R crank, Spoon balanced rods, USDM ITR pistons.

Type R exhaust cam and CTR intake. The CTR's 5 more degrees of duration makes quite a bit more mid range power. Compared to the ITR it does not feel as flat before vtec.

Supertech flat face race valves, race springs, and titanium retainers. We went this route with intentions of using bigger cams. Have not done that yet.

DC 4-2-1 header. There are way better products on the market these days.

Skunck2 many with stock GSR throttle body.

This setup has seen some where around 60k miles and is only getting stronger. My other friends JDM Type R in his EG is every bit as strong as this combination but does not have the power below 6k like the one above. The JDM motor is running a blox mani and 68mm throttle with a hitech header and skunk2 chip ecu.

The GSR build should be some where between 12.2 to 12.5 and it hasn't missed a beat.

So I say build it. But I will say buy good valve springs, dont skimp on your header, and its worth the extra money to get the whole rotating assembly balanced.

I'm assuming you mean compression ratio?
I suppose I ought to bite the bullet, spend the extra cash, and have it balanced but I am reluctant. With all of the time I will have to spend to put together the money, I could just do a budget build and be enjoying my car again in a few weeks... no doubt with significantly less power and rev capability- but we're talking several more months of my car and parts collecting dust
I will invest in a proper header at some point, I just want to get the internals squared away first.

I'm starting to see why ITR motors sell for as much as they do

[zakats]

updated price list... any thoughts?