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This brought over from another thread. It's political and long winded, but give it a read.
QUOTE (kaymo @ Aug 3 2008, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
why? flight 93 was just part of a government coverup for 9-11.
QUOTE (rwdcrx @ Aug 5 2008, 03:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I really fuckin' hope you're kidding! You're lucky to have soldiers, like myself and others on this site, to have fought for your "right" to say such blasphemous shit about our country and President. If you were anywhere else you would be in prison or killed! Our country is so "PC" its actually "OK" to talk shit about our President. He might not be a good one and has made mistakes, but that doesn't mean 9-11 was a conspiracy! Are you fuckin' kidding me?
QUOTE (rwdcrx @ Aug 8 2008, 04:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was going to let this die but I still feel I must re comment on a couple of things.
First, I apologize about the heated post I made. I just have been fed up with all of the BS lately.
Second, "its not that our country is PC. its that our country was founded on the idea that if you dont like the way things are, espically with your government, you should speak out and try to make things happen. is that not what the constitution's Amendments are? changes made to the rules when we thought things were not what they should be. we have made them and then like prohibition changed them. "
I agree with this statment, but You can't say all of that, then not support the President. You are in favor of democracy but when "your" guy doesn't win the election, you have a problem. All I'm saying is, You want to have the right to change government, it didn't happen last election, so suck it up and support our leader no matter how much of a "dolt" he is.
Third, "i do not at all consider saying anything about our government and espically our dolt of a president, Dubya, blasphemous. i also do not see how i said anything about our country."
Saying things about the President and our government is saying things about our country. And what I felt was blasphemous was saying that "Flight 93 was just part of a government coverup for 9-11 "(this is what chapped my ass before) Why can't you people just accept the fact that terrorists attacked us on that day instead of trying to make up some far fetched governmental conspiracy theory.
Fourth, "our system of government works if its treated properly but i believe the president and others do not follow the rules, our laws, our constitution. i think that takes our brave soldiers to places they have no reason to be in. i think it puts our armed forces in needless dangers for profits of those making those decisions. i think those in power also make it a point to not help soldiers that have been hurt by the war. i have heard of many soldiers who were denied claims for medical treatment.
"
I feel that we do need to be "over there" mostly Afghanistan fighting "terror", but we still need to be there. Do I think Americans were exploited for "Dubya's" own personal agenda? Maybe, but we are also there for the benifit of public. As far as "soilders being denied claims for treatment" As you stated yourself, it's here-say. What about all of the benifactors from "9-11 victims compensation fund" Each family got millions. You can't state all of the negitives when the positives outweigh them.
Fifth, "and yes, i am serious, i do not believe what they "told" us was the truth, and i have read about how those in power refuse to comment on record about all the details of 9-11 to the committee that was created for the purpose of finding out exactly what happened. You are asking me not to believe what my government tells me and then you turn right around and tell me you believe what you've "read". Why do you trust what you "read" over what your country tells you? why would there be any reason to not make any report to the 9-11 committee unless there was much that needed to be secret. Show me proof of this, and that doesn't mean something Michel Moorer wrote, actual proof. Your "facts" are simply wrong.i do not just believe something because my government says so. our founding fathers would have laughed if you said that a "good american" shouldnt ever question his government and believe everything they tell you. I'll question government when I feel I need to. I don't feel the need.the flouride they put in city water to "purify" the drinking supply was an idea that originated in Nazi Germany by Hitler and his cronies. sodium flouride is poison. id rather not drink it. i have a 425ft well. LOL your "facts" are so off on this one, its funny! Yes, sodium floride is poison. So is clorine. So is mercury. So is molybdenum, uranium, and gold (and many other heavy metals). ALL of which except floride and clorine occur in NATURAL water sources! How's your teeth? I have only three cavitys in my 35 year existance. If you're honest about drinking well water, and yourself, I'd bet you have dental problems, right? Or are dentists some form of government mind control that you've manage to avoid?
our government has also tried to pass laws to make it possible to build power plants closer to our national forests and protected wildlife areas. Yes they have, and also to do offshore oil drilling and drilling in ANWR. Maybe if our bullshit PC public would pass these proposals, we wouldn't have to spend $4/gal for gas. Ever think of that? Then the economy would be much better because we would spend our money on recreation, and frivolous consumables (like 20+ year old Hondas
) instead of the public wondering if they can buy enough gas to get to work. Or trying to decide whether to buy food or pay the electric bill.do you always trust your government? Yes I do.
i hope not." Sorry to disappoint you.
You're 21, you were 14 when 9-11 happened. 13 when the USS Cole was bombed, and 6 when the WTC was bombed the first time. You are too young to understand the atrocities commited against the U.S. and why we need to stop "terror".
Just out of curiosity, Since you have so many "facts" about 9-11, what exactly is our government "covering up" with the 9-11 tragedy? Also, FYI Flight 93 would have struck another U.S. landmark had it not been for several brave citizens aboard that plane. Another question.... How does an airliner crashing in a field in Pennsylvania at the same time there are three other plane crashes, "cover up" 9-11?
Your "facts" make no sense.
Sorry to threadjack, this will be all. Except, of coarse, my rebuttals.
First, I apologize about the heated post I made. I just have been fed up with all of the BS lately.
Second, "its not that our country is PC. its that our country was founded on the idea that if you dont like the way things are, espically with your government, you should speak out and try to make things happen. is that not what the constitution's Amendments are? changes made to the rules when we thought things were not what they should be. we have made them and then like prohibition changed them. "
I agree with this statment, but You can't say all of that, then not support the President. You are in favor of democracy but when "your" guy doesn't win the election, you have a problem. All I'm saying is, You want to have the right to change government, it didn't happen last election, so suck it up and support our leader no matter how much of a "dolt" he is.
Third, "i do not at all consider saying anything about our government and espically our dolt of a president, Dubya, blasphemous. i also do not see how i said anything about our country."
Saying things about the President and our government is saying things about our country. And what I felt was blasphemous was saying that "Flight 93 was just part of a government coverup for 9-11 "(this is what chapped my ass before) Why can't you people just accept the fact that terrorists attacked us on that day instead of trying to make up some far fetched governmental conspiracy theory.
Fourth, "our system of government works if its treated properly but i believe the president and others do not follow the rules, our laws, our constitution. i think that takes our brave soldiers to places they have no reason to be in. i think it puts our armed forces in needless dangers for profits of those making those decisions. i think those in power also make it a point to not help soldiers that have been hurt by the war. i have heard of many soldiers who were denied claims for medical treatment.
"
I feel that we do need to be "over there" mostly Afghanistan fighting "terror", but we still need to be there. Do I think Americans were exploited for "Dubya's" own personal agenda? Maybe, but we are also there for the benifit of public. As far as "soilders being denied claims for treatment" As you stated yourself, it's here-say. What about all of the benifactors from "9-11 victims compensation fund" Each family got millions. You can't state all of the negitives when the positives outweigh them.
Fifth, "and yes, i am serious, i do not believe what they "told" us was the truth, and i have read about how those in power refuse to comment on record about all the details of 9-11 to the committee that was created for the purpose of finding out exactly what happened. You are asking me not to believe what my government tells me and then you turn right around and tell me you believe what you've "read". Why do you trust what you "read" over what your country tells you? why would there be any reason to not make any report to the 9-11 committee unless there was much that needed to be secret. Show me proof of this, and that doesn't mean something Michel Moorer wrote, actual proof. Your "facts" are simply wrong.i do not just believe something because my government says so. our founding fathers would have laughed if you said that a "good american" shouldnt ever question his government and believe everything they tell you. I'll question government when I feel I need to. I don't feel the need.the flouride they put in city water to "purify" the drinking supply was an idea that originated in Nazi Germany by Hitler and his cronies. sodium flouride is poison. id rather not drink it. i have a 425ft well. LOL your "facts" are so off on this one, its funny! Yes, sodium floride is poison. So is clorine. So is mercury. So is molybdenum, uranium, and gold (and many other heavy metals). ALL of which except floride and clorine occur in NATURAL water sources! How's your teeth? I have only three cavitys in my 35 year existance. If you're honest about drinking well water, and yourself, I'd bet you have dental problems, right? Or are dentists some form of government mind control that you've manage to avoid?
our government has also tried to pass laws to make it possible to build power plants closer to our national forests and protected wildlife areas. Yes they have, and also to do offshore oil drilling and drilling in ANWR. Maybe if our bullshit PC public would pass these proposals, we wouldn't have to spend $4/gal for gas. Ever think of that? Then the economy would be much better because we would spend our money on recreation, and frivolous consumables (like 20+ year old Hondas
) instead of the public wondering if they can buy enough gas to get to work. Or trying to decide whether to buy food or pay the electric bill.do you always trust your government? Yes I do.i hope not." Sorry to disappoint you.
You're 21, you were 14 when 9-11 happened. 13 when the USS Cole was bombed, and 6 when the WTC was bombed the first time. You are too young to understand the atrocities commited against the U.S. and why we need to stop "terror".
Just out of curiosity, Since you have so many "facts" about 9-11, what exactly is our government "covering up" with the 9-11 tragedy? Also, FYI Flight 93 would have struck another U.S. landmark had it not been for several brave citizens aboard that plane. Another question.... How does an airliner crashing in a field in Pennsylvania at the same time there are three other plane crashes, "cover up" 9-11?
Your "facts" make no sense.
Sorry to threadjack, this will be all. Except, of coarse, my rebuttals.
QUOTE (kaymo @ Aug 10 2008, 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
neverendingninja: ill take that high five now
lol when i saw that i thought about Meet the Spartans
"high fives for the ladies, open mouth tounge kisses for the men!"
lol when i saw that i thought about Meet the Spartans
"high fives for the ladies, open mouth tounge kisses for the men!"
QUOTE (rwdcrx @ Aug 11 2008, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, here we go.
[/color]
This ^^^pretty much sums it up
"Saying things about the President and our government is saying things about our country. And what I felt was blasphemous was saying that "Flight 93 was just part of a government coverup for 9-11 "(this is what chapped my ass before)"
Saying things about our president and those running our government is not saying things about our country. It is merely saying things about those in power.
Just saying that they are one in the same does not make it so.
I said nothing about "this county is a bunch of crap" niether did I i said that i believed in this country and what it is based on, which would be the constitution. I think that those in power have taken a SHIT on our constitution and I am not the only one.
About your use of the term "blasphemous":
Borrowed from Wikipedia
Blasphemy is the disrespectful use of the name of one or more gods. It may include using sacred names as stress expletives without intention to pray or speak of sacred matters; it is also sometimes defined as language expressing disapproved beliefs, or disbelief. Sometimes blasphemy is used loosely to mean any profane language.
In a broader sense, blasphemy is irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable.
I did not say anything in the name of any god, or show any irreverence towards anything sacred. I didn't say you did. The only thing sacred in our government is our constitution, amendments, and our bill of rights. If you consider our president "sacred" then thats on you, but i don't approve of being told i am saying things against God because I distrust our corrupt government.
"Why can't you people just accept the fact that terrorists attacked us on that day instead of trying to make up some far fetched governmental conspiracy theory."
I accept the fact that terrorists attacked our country. The merriam-webster definition of the word Terrorist: "one who systematically uses terror, especially as a means of coercion"
By definition, terrorist attacked our county and our way of life. This does not mean that they had to be Arabs, or Iraqis or Bin Laden himself. It only means that whoever did this, is using terror to control things that are happening. I have yet to have anyone show me anything that could make me believe beyond a reasonable doubt that these attacks were carried out by those who have received blame. Other than Bin Laden himself claiming it, but that's fake right?
I have however, seen those in power in this county use scare tactics, otherwise known as "terror" to coerce our congress to vote laws into place that blatantly violate the constitution.
I have heard those same people tell us that they are protecting us from the big bad arabs and that we must sacrifice some of our freedoms to have a safe and secure nation.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
This is terrorism! Giving up those freedoms to be "secure" from the "terrorists" is changing our way of life because of their actions. THIS IS THE POINT OF TERRORISM. THEY ARE WINNING. <----I'm confused with you. Are you saying that there are forign terrorist or is our government the "terrorists"?They arent trying to fight a traditional war to kill armies. They are fighting to change our way of life and they are winning. We respond to this with traditional warfare that was designed to fight another army, NOT to fight other people and their way of life. IT IS their way of life. They have lived this way for hundreds of years.
If I have learned anything about our government, its that hardly any "conspiracy theories" are that far fetched. If anything they usually make ALOT more sense than the rubbish they attempt to feed us.
Moving on
"I feel that we do need to be "over there" mostly Afghanistan fighting "terror", but we still need to be there. Do I think Americans were exploited for "Dubya's" own personal agenda? Maybe, but we are also there for the benifit of public. As far as "soilders being denied claims for treatment" As you stated yourself, it's here-say."
We put an oil man in office. Gas prices went from 1.20 a gallon to over 4 dollars a gallon, while oil companies give reports of RECORD PROFITS, while thousands of American soldiers die in Iraq. Where is this "benfit of public"? I agree with you
And as far as my "hear-say" comments about veterans being denied claims, well here you go. If you trust your government then you can believe these reports right?
http://www.kaisernet...cfm?DR_ID=53327
http://www.armytimes...receipt_071508/
The first article includes a link to the GOVERNMENT report that these articles originated from. Here-say, or simply fact?
Next up
"You are asking me not to believe what my government tells me and then you turn right around and tell me you believe what you've "read". Why do you trust what you "read" over what your country tells you? Show me proof of this, and that doesn't mean something Michel Moorer wrote, actual proof."
I'm not sure where I have quoted Michael Moore. You didn't. I was asking you if this is where you got your "facts" I know that he skews the truth to make a larger impact on his viewers, but one must do what one must do to capture the (very short) attention of the American people. He is a filmmaker. He stretches whats there to rock the boat. To make people stop accepting everything they are told is truth and go out and look for it on your own. If you think the things he says are so far fetched and silly, then go out and disprove him, but i think that is exactly what he wants you to do. He wants you to not accept what he says blindly, but to go out and find the truth on your own. He is trying to provoke us, and for that Michael Moore deserves our respect, if nothing else.
And instead of asking me to show you proof that my allegations are true, why dont you show me proof that my allegations are FALSE. That should be a million times easier (it is) than me sitting here at home trying to PROVE that it wasnt a 747 that hit the pentagon. You prove to me that it wasnt. I challenge that such "proof" does not exist, whilst any "proof" that it wasnt a 747 would have surely been destroyed by those who made it happen. First of all... you made the statement that "9-11 was a conspiracy" So I say "Prove it to me" I didn't make the statement. Try telling all of the families that lost their Fathers, Mothers, Sons, and Daughters that the planes didn't really crash. What, are all of those people on some Top Secret island somewhere? Come on man, give me a break!
"those in power refuse to comment on record about all the details of 9-11 to the committee that was created for the purpose of finding out exactly what happened." "Your "facts" are simply wrong."
It is truly a bold statement to tell me that my facts are simply wrong when you have not even bothered to ask me my sources. You assume Michael Moore is my goto guy for news, but I have already proved that I don't blindly trust anything, or distrust for that matter, without doing a bit of research first. Perhaps you should do the same, because as far as I can tell, you dont even have any facts. You still fail to provide any proof of this. And who exactly is your goto news source? Not a single news agency corroborates any of your consiracy theories.
"LOL your "facts" are so off on this one, its funny! Yes, sodium floride is poison. So is clorine. So is mercury. So is molybdenum, uranium, and gold (and many other heavy metals). ALL of which except floride and clorine occur in NATURAL water sources! How's your teeth? I have only three cavitys in my 35 year existance. If you're honest about drinking well water, and yourself, I'd bet you have dental problems, right?" [/color]
for the first 19 years I did drink city water, and i have lots of cavities. I have only had a well for the past couple years but I can tell you I have been sick alot less and felt alot better in general since i stopped drinking city water. yes i know that flouride and chlorine are poisons, but as you said, do not occur naturally. so why would we put them in our water? (Clorine kills bacteria and paracites that may be in the water. Floride is a catalyst for calcium to help keep your teeth and bones strong.) perhaps that certain manufacturing processes make sodium flouride as a by-products and companies needed a way to dispose of this POISON. sure mercury and molybdeum and uranium and gold occur natually and can sometimes (almost always) be found in natural water sources, but I'm not going to drink from them. i dont think i would drink from my well if it contained those things. You drink these things everyday but since it doesnt, i'll stick with my well water, which also tastes a million times better. And still includes all of those things. I forgot about Strontium and Iodine as well. When our well went dry and we had to hook up city water to flush and take showers, the water smelled of chlorine so badly that it was like jumping in a swimming pool. did your mother not ever tell you not to drink water from the swimming pool? maybe not...
"Or are dentists some form of government mind control that you've manage to avoid?"
My English 101 teacher taught me in persuasive writing, when your opponent begins to use silly comments like this one, that is obviously aimed at showing me to be incompetent, or perhaps even mentally ill, it tells you that they are running out of ideas and must resort to childish retorts. He taught me to stick to the facts and continue to lay down your truth, and that intelligence will see through this transparent attack. This was a joke for anyone who should be reading this thread to break up the mundane and monotonous text. As soon as you start stating facts, I'll listen. I don't consider you as an opponet because you clearly, are unarmed. Speaking of "running out of ideas". Why didn't you answer most of my questions? I'll reask them at the bottom*
And now racing towards the finish Too bad your tank is empty
"Yes they have, and also to do offshore oil drilling and drilling in ANWR. Maybe if our bullshit PC public would pass these proposals, we wouldn't have to spend $4/gal for gas. Ever think of that? Then the economy would be much better"
You must be voting for McCain then. So am I to believe that Barack Obama is responsible for high gas prices, since he is not for offshore drilling? No.
Did you take even one second to ask, will offshore drilling actually make a short term change in gas prices, and not just assume that it will? (While gas prices would come down, the main reason for my support of offshore, and ANWR drilling is so that we don't need to rely on forign oil.) and at what ecological cost? The same cost that the thousands of offshore rigs that we already have, MINIMAL.They say offshore drilling doesnt affect the environment, yet millions of gallons of oil were spilled into the Gulf of Mexico when Katrina hit. And this affected you how????? Oh that's right, it didn't! Do you not think that has some effect on the environment? Yes. It's called risk vs. reward. What about the California coast? Do you not think that perhaps drilling into the Earth, into the continental shelf may cause un-natural movement in tectonic plates, possibly causing earthquakes and in turn sending San Fransisco to a watery grave? OK you're showing your ignorance again. The tectonic plates are BILLIONS and BILLIONS of tons. Drilling a hole in it is NOTHING. The fact that you think drilling rock would cause an earthquake is hilarious!! Would you support drilling if it were for fresh water????
Ok lets say for a second it won't destroy our environment and piss off mother earth. Lets look at whether offshore drilling will make some sort of immediate effect on gas prices. Immediate, no. Months after, yes.
The government�€™s official source for energy statistics says that offshore drilling will not have a �€œsignificant impact�€� on gas prices until 2030.
McCain�€™s own campaign admits that offshore drilling will have no short term effect on gas prices:
�€œDouglas Holtz-Eakin, a senior advisor to McCain�€™s campaign, acknowledged in a conference call to reporters that new offshore drilling would have no immediate effect on supplies or prices.�€�
Yet McCain insists on touting offshore drilling as the best way to �€œassure affordable fuel for America,�€�
http://economistsvie...ore-drilli.html
http://www.baynews9..../22/359173.html
http://thinkprogress...lling-question/
Go ahead buddy, go digging for that few cups of real "American" oil so you can have that 25 cent drop in price in 2030. I would rather we look into how this happened in the first place, maybe like how the republicans pushed for deregulation of oil and allowing all this "speculation" crap that gave the oil companies the chance to rape the world and collect record profits, while the average american citizen struggles to afford to GO TO WORK, that is if they can FIND A JOB. And dont think its just the republicans, the democrats sat idly by while all this was going on. thats because they are all crooks. Diapers and politicians should be changed quickly and frequently, and for the same reasons. I agree (mostly) Just remember, all of that drilling and refining is American jobs not forign jobs.
"You're 21, you were 14 when 9-11 happened. 13 when the USS Cole was bombed, and 6 when the WTC was bombed the first time. You are too young to understand the atrocities commited against the U.S. and why we need to stop "terror"."
You are right, i was 14 when the WTC was hit. that means i probably have a better memory of what happened. (Not hardly.)the roofline of the pentagon was intact for some time after the giant hole was made in the side, which would have been impossible had it been hit by a 747 since the tail section is taller than the roof. i remember not seeing any luggage or large bits of plane around the hole or in the hole, and do dont remember seeing any pieces of plane being removed from said hole in the pentagon. i also do not remember any large fires which would have consumed a large section of lawn as the plane that supposedly hit the pentagon had just fueled up for a cross country flight.
i remember seeing both towers of the WTC fall at 10 seconds a piece, which is mathmatically correct for FREEFALL speeds. Your ignorance is showing again. ALL mass falls at the same rate. Reguardless of why it's falling. A building collapsing from weakened metal would not have fallen so perfectly on itself. Actually, yes. The buildings were designed like that specifically if a plane were to hit them. I saw an interview with the architect, and he said, " If a plane were to accidentally hit the tower that is how it would fall. I (the architect) never thought about a terrorist attack on the towers." (I paraphrased his words) I suppose you are going to tall me that, that interview was fake, right? the planes didnt hit dead center, they hit to one side. doesn't matter. This would have left one side stronger than the other causing it to fall to one side. i remember seeing the windows blowing out the side in a pattern, the same pattern you would see on a CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. mmmm ok. I suppose you watch alot of "controlled demolition" footage don't you. I also remember the interview with the owner of the WTC buildings that morning, in a ONE TIME TELECAST which would NEVER be aired again about how the damage to the two towers were so great that it was necessary to "pull" building 5. it normally takes a month, but 2 weeks if you are busting ass to ready a building for demolition, yet somehow once the other two towers were in bad shape, they decided to "pull" building 5. If anyone else reading this, saw this "footage" let me know. PLEASE! I remember watching that building go down too... looking exactly like the towers did. LIKE CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. Ditto above responce to "Demo footage"
Like i said before, i dont need to show you proof that it happened. I saw it. Me too Like I said before... I'm sure you're an expert in geology, and explosives, and that would qualify you to make such a remark, right? You need to somehow show me that it DIDNT happen. So far all you can tell me is that our government said thats not how it happened and that alone is enough to tell me it probably did.
I remember the USS Cole too. it was a black mark on the side of a ship. Other than that, the only thing we know is that the government says happened. They could have showed us that picture and said a kitchen fire spread to some oxygen bottles and blew a hole in the side of the ship and we wouldnt know any different, so unless you were there, whos to say thats isnt what happened?
So yes, i am 21, but i dont see how that makes it so i am too young to understand why we need to fight? I didnt live through Pearl Harbor, but i understand that because we were attacked by Japan we needed to toss some nukes their way to put them in their place. So let me get this straight. You believe that Pearl Harbor was real but not 9/11? Same government....How do know that Franklin D. Roosevelt didn't make up a lie so he could test out his new A-Bombs? Are you saying because i wasnt alive back then that i dont understand why we needed to do that? No. because im pretty sure i just explained why we did that, and im pretty sure i understand it. No.
I may be 21, and you may be 35, but don't think for one second that it makes me wrong and you right. I never said that.
Just the other day I visited Monticello, the plantation of Thomas Jefferson. In 1776 he was appointed to the "committee of five" that drafted the Declaration Of Independence. While he was the second youngest (bested only by a few years) he is given credit as the MAIN author, and was known for his immense knowledge and understanding of government and his top-notch writing ability. This is on a committee of people who other than Robert Livingston, were much, much older than him. While they may have been older than he, he was 33 when he wrote it. So that statement you made doesn't prove your point. It proves mine.
get off your high horse. 35 isnt that old or that wise. I didn't say it was.
me calling 9-11 a conspiracy isnt a fact. its my opinion. thank you the facts i have stated are not "simply wrong" and make PLENTY of sense. (to you) you need to check your facts and dont assume that every conspiracy theorist is an idiot and just watches michael moore documentaries. dont assume everyone younger than you is some young dumb punk that doesnt know shit beacuse he's never served in the armed forces. I don't but when you're 35 you will see what I mean. Until then you just won't get it. if you open your ears and your mind and admit that you dont know everything, (I do) you will learn alot more in life. LOL I live by that idea and i am all the better for it.
as a member of the armed forces you should encourage EVERYONE to speak out. No, I was taught to defend our government not to "speek out" against it being able to speak out against our government is the exact freedom you are defending. No, I defended you and YOUR right to speek out against it. you were sent to Iraq to get rid of saddam, who told his people not to question him or the government. we went there, in violation of international law and our constitution to cause a regime change, because we felt that those people were oppressed and not able to speak out against their corrupt government. for this we publicly hung Saddam Hussein. I dont think we should treat our president any differently. as a criminal. One of the differences is, if you were in Sadam's government, you'd be dead! Dubya isn't going to kill you for "speeking out"
Go look up the 35 articles of Impeachment against Bush. You will see why i feel this way.
*
FYI- I'm a registered INDEPENDANT voter. In '92 I voted Clinton. In '96 I voted Clinton. In 2000 I voted Gore. In '04 I voted Bush. That would make me "open minded". I voted Bush because 9/11 changed my life and the way I think about things. He supported my feelings about terrorism.
Your use of the word "Arabs" is derogatory, prejudice and racist.
" 'Arab' is defined independently of religious identity, and pre-dates the rise of Islam, with historically attested Arab Christian kingdoms and Arab Jews. The earliest documented use of the word "Arab" as defining a group of people dates from the 9th century BC. Islamized but non-Arabized peoples, and therefore the majority of the world's Muslims, do not form part of the Arab World but comprise what is the geographically larger and diverse Muslim World."
You should have used the term "Muslims" While still being derogatory, prejudiced and racist, it fits what you were trying to say better. BTW not all muslims are terrorists, just thought I'd let you know.
So what about my questions?
What is 9/11 supossedly hiding?
How does a plane crashing in a field cover up the other plane crashes and 9/11?
Why do you trust what you read (as long as it's left wing propeganda) and not your government?
Why are you not answering those questions? Could it be, you don't know. That you're just spewing left-wing, consiracy theory, propegandized "facts". That you really don't have your own facts, only what you have heard from your "heros".
I'm waiting.....
[putting hand up in the air] I'll take my high-5 now [/putting hand up in the air]
[/color]
This ^^^pretty much sums it up
"Saying things about the President and our government is saying things about our country. And what I felt was blasphemous was saying that "Flight 93 was just part of a government coverup for 9-11 "(this is what chapped my ass before)"
Saying things about our president and those running our government is not saying things about our country. It is merely saying things about those in power.
Just saying that they are one in the same does not make it so.
I said nothing about "this county is a bunch of crap" niether did I i said that i believed in this country and what it is based on, which would be the constitution. I think that those in power have taken a SHIT on our constitution and I am not the only one.
About your use of the term "blasphemous":
Borrowed from Wikipedia
Blasphemy is the disrespectful use of the name of one or more gods. It may include using sacred names as stress expletives without intention to pray or speak of sacred matters; it is also sometimes defined as language expressing disapproved beliefs, or disbelief. Sometimes blasphemy is used loosely to mean any profane language.
In a broader sense, blasphemy is irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable.
I did not say anything in the name of any god, or show any irreverence towards anything sacred. I didn't say you did. The only thing sacred in our government is our constitution, amendments, and our bill of rights. If you consider our president "sacred" then thats on you, but i don't approve of being told i am saying things against God because I distrust our corrupt government.
"Why can't you people just accept the fact that terrorists attacked us on that day instead of trying to make up some far fetched governmental conspiracy theory."
I accept the fact that terrorists attacked our country. The merriam-webster definition of the word Terrorist: "one who systematically uses terror, especially as a means of coercion"
By definition, terrorist attacked our county and our way of life. This does not mean that they had to be Arabs, or Iraqis or Bin Laden himself. It only means that whoever did this, is using terror to control things that are happening. I have yet to have anyone show me anything that could make me believe beyond a reasonable doubt that these attacks were carried out by those who have received blame. Other than Bin Laden himself claiming it, but that's fake right?
I have however, seen those in power in this county use scare tactics, otherwise known as "terror" to coerce our congress to vote laws into place that blatantly violate the constitution.
I have heard those same people tell us that they are protecting us from the big bad arabs and that we must sacrifice some of our freedoms to have a safe and secure nation.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
This is terrorism! Giving up those freedoms to be "secure" from the "terrorists" is changing our way of life because of their actions. THIS IS THE POINT OF TERRORISM. THEY ARE WINNING. <----I'm confused with you. Are you saying that there are forign terrorist or is our government the "terrorists"?They arent trying to fight a traditional war to kill armies. They are fighting to change our way of life and they are winning. We respond to this with traditional warfare that was designed to fight another army, NOT to fight other people and their way of life. IT IS their way of life. They have lived this way for hundreds of years.
If I have learned anything about our government, its that hardly any "conspiracy theories" are that far fetched. If anything they usually make ALOT more sense than the rubbish they attempt to feed us.
Moving on
"I feel that we do need to be "over there" mostly Afghanistan fighting "terror", but we still need to be there. Do I think Americans were exploited for "Dubya's" own personal agenda? Maybe, but we are also there for the benifit of public. As far as "soilders being denied claims for treatment" As you stated yourself, it's here-say."
We put an oil man in office. Gas prices went from 1.20 a gallon to over 4 dollars a gallon, while oil companies give reports of RECORD PROFITS, while thousands of American soldiers die in Iraq. Where is this "benfit of public"? I agree with you
And as far as my "hear-say" comments about veterans being denied claims, well here you go. If you trust your government then you can believe these reports right?
http://www.kaisernet...cfm?DR_ID=53327
http://www.armytimes...receipt_071508/
The first article includes a link to the GOVERNMENT report that these articles originated from. Here-say, or simply fact?
Next up
"You are asking me not to believe what my government tells me and then you turn right around and tell me you believe what you've "read". Why do you trust what you "read" over what your country tells you? Show me proof of this, and that doesn't mean something Michel Moorer wrote, actual proof."
I'm not sure where I have quoted Michael Moore. You didn't. I was asking you if this is where you got your "facts" I know that he skews the truth to make a larger impact on his viewers, but one must do what one must do to capture the (very short) attention of the American people. He is a filmmaker. He stretches whats there to rock the boat. To make people stop accepting everything they are told is truth and go out and look for it on your own. If you think the things he says are so far fetched and silly, then go out and disprove him, but i think that is exactly what he wants you to do. He wants you to not accept what he says blindly, but to go out and find the truth on your own. He is trying to provoke us, and for that Michael Moore deserves our respect, if nothing else.
And instead of asking me to show you proof that my allegations are true, why dont you show me proof that my allegations are FALSE. That should be a million times easier (it is) than me sitting here at home trying to PROVE that it wasnt a 747 that hit the pentagon. You prove to me that it wasnt. I challenge that such "proof" does not exist, whilst any "proof" that it wasnt a 747 would have surely been destroyed by those who made it happen. First of all... you made the statement that "9-11 was a conspiracy" So I say "Prove it to me" I didn't make the statement. Try telling all of the families that lost their Fathers, Mothers, Sons, and Daughters that the planes didn't really crash. What, are all of those people on some Top Secret island somewhere? Come on man, give me a break!
"those in power refuse to comment on record about all the details of 9-11 to the committee that was created for the purpose of finding out exactly what happened." "Your "facts" are simply wrong."
It is truly a bold statement to tell me that my facts are simply wrong when you have not even bothered to ask me my sources. You assume Michael Moore is my goto guy for news, but I have already proved that I don't blindly trust anything, or distrust for that matter, without doing a bit of research first. Perhaps you should do the same, because as far as I can tell, you dont even have any facts. You still fail to provide any proof of this. And who exactly is your goto news source? Not a single news agency corroborates any of your consiracy theories.
"LOL your "facts" are so off on this one, its funny! Yes, sodium floride is poison. So is clorine. So is mercury. So is molybdenum, uranium, and gold (and many other heavy metals). ALL of which except floride and clorine occur in NATURAL water sources! How's your teeth? I have only three cavitys in my 35 year existance. If you're honest about drinking well water, and yourself, I'd bet you have dental problems, right?" [/color]
for the first 19 years I did drink city water, and i have lots of cavities. I have only had a well for the past couple years but I can tell you I have been sick alot less and felt alot better in general since i stopped drinking city water. yes i know that flouride and chlorine are poisons, but as you said, do not occur naturally. so why would we put them in our water? (Clorine kills bacteria and paracites that may be in the water. Floride is a catalyst for calcium to help keep your teeth and bones strong.) perhaps that certain manufacturing processes make sodium flouride as a by-products and companies needed a way to dispose of this POISON. sure mercury and molybdeum and uranium and gold occur natually and can sometimes (almost always) be found in natural water sources, but I'm not going to drink from them. i dont think i would drink from my well if it contained those things. You drink these things everyday but since it doesnt, i'll stick with my well water, which also tastes a million times better. And still includes all of those things. I forgot about Strontium and Iodine as well. When our well went dry and we had to hook up city water to flush and take showers, the water smelled of chlorine so badly that it was like jumping in a swimming pool. did your mother not ever tell you not to drink water from the swimming pool? maybe not...
"Or are dentists some form of government mind control that you've manage to avoid?"
My English 101 teacher taught me in persuasive writing, when your opponent begins to use silly comments like this one, that is obviously aimed at showing me to be incompetent, or perhaps even mentally ill, it tells you that they are running out of ideas and must resort to childish retorts. He taught me to stick to the facts and continue to lay down your truth, and that intelligence will see through this transparent attack. This was a joke for anyone who should be reading this thread to break up the mundane and monotonous text. As soon as you start stating facts, I'll listen. I don't consider you as an opponet because you clearly, are unarmed. Speaking of "running out of ideas". Why didn't you answer most of my questions? I'll reask them at the bottom*
And now racing towards the finish Too bad your tank is empty
"Yes they have, and also to do offshore oil drilling and drilling in ANWR. Maybe if our bullshit PC public would pass these proposals, we wouldn't have to spend $4/gal for gas. Ever think of that? Then the economy would be much better"
You must be voting for McCain then. So am I to believe that Barack Obama is responsible for high gas prices, since he is not for offshore drilling? No.
Did you take even one second to ask, will offshore drilling actually make a short term change in gas prices, and not just assume that it will? (While gas prices would come down, the main reason for my support of offshore, and ANWR drilling is so that we don't need to rely on forign oil.) and at what ecological cost? The same cost that the thousands of offshore rigs that we already have, MINIMAL.They say offshore drilling doesnt affect the environment, yet millions of gallons of oil were spilled into the Gulf of Mexico when Katrina hit. And this affected you how????? Oh that's right, it didn't! Do you not think that has some effect on the environment? Yes. It's called risk vs. reward. What about the California coast? Do you not think that perhaps drilling into the Earth, into the continental shelf may cause un-natural movement in tectonic plates, possibly causing earthquakes and in turn sending San Fransisco to a watery grave? OK you're showing your ignorance again. The tectonic plates are BILLIONS and BILLIONS of tons. Drilling a hole in it is NOTHING. The fact that you think drilling rock would cause an earthquake is hilarious!! Would you support drilling if it were for fresh water????
Ok lets say for a second it won't destroy our environment and piss off mother earth. Lets look at whether offshore drilling will make some sort of immediate effect on gas prices. Immediate, no. Months after, yes.
The government�€™s official source for energy statistics says that offshore drilling will not have a �€œsignificant impact�€� on gas prices until 2030.
McCain�€™s own campaign admits that offshore drilling will have no short term effect on gas prices:
�€œDouglas Holtz-Eakin, a senior advisor to McCain�€™s campaign, acknowledged in a conference call to reporters that new offshore drilling would have no immediate effect on supplies or prices.�€�
Yet McCain insists on touting offshore drilling as the best way to �€œassure affordable fuel for America,�€�
http://economistsvie...ore-drilli.html
http://www.baynews9..../22/359173.html
http://thinkprogress...lling-question/
Go ahead buddy, go digging for that few cups of real "American" oil so you can have that 25 cent drop in price in 2030. I would rather we look into how this happened in the first place, maybe like how the republicans pushed for deregulation of oil and allowing all this "speculation" crap that gave the oil companies the chance to rape the world and collect record profits, while the average american citizen struggles to afford to GO TO WORK, that is if they can FIND A JOB. And dont think its just the republicans, the democrats sat idly by while all this was going on. thats because they are all crooks. Diapers and politicians should be changed quickly and frequently, and for the same reasons. I agree (mostly) Just remember, all of that drilling and refining is American jobs not forign jobs.
"You're 21, you were 14 when 9-11 happened. 13 when the USS Cole was bombed, and 6 when the WTC was bombed the first time. You are too young to understand the atrocities commited against the U.S. and why we need to stop "terror"."
You are right, i was 14 when the WTC was hit. that means i probably have a better memory of what happened. (Not hardly.)the roofline of the pentagon was intact for some time after the giant hole was made in the side, which would have been impossible had it been hit by a 747 since the tail section is taller than the roof. i remember not seeing any luggage or large bits of plane around the hole or in the hole, and do dont remember seeing any pieces of plane being removed from said hole in the pentagon. i also do not remember any large fires which would have consumed a large section of lawn as the plane that supposedly hit the pentagon had just fueled up for a cross country flight.
i remember seeing both towers of the WTC fall at 10 seconds a piece, which is mathmatically correct for FREEFALL speeds. Your ignorance is showing again. ALL mass falls at the same rate. Reguardless of why it's falling. A building collapsing from weakened metal would not have fallen so perfectly on itself. Actually, yes. The buildings were designed like that specifically if a plane were to hit them. I saw an interview with the architect, and he said, " If a plane were to accidentally hit the tower that is how it would fall. I (the architect) never thought about a terrorist attack on the towers." (I paraphrased his words) I suppose you are going to tall me that, that interview was fake, right? the planes didnt hit dead center, they hit to one side. doesn't matter. This would have left one side stronger than the other causing it to fall to one side. i remember seeing the windows blowing out the side in a pattern, the same pattern you would see on a CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. mmmm ok. I suppose you watch alot of "controlled demolition" footage don't you. I also remember the interview with the owner of the WTC buildings that morning, in a ONE TIME TELECAST which would NEVER be aired again about how the damage to the two towers were so great that it was necessary to "pull" building 5. it normally takes a month, but 2 weeks if you are busting ass to ready a building for demolition, yet somehow once the other two towers were in bad shape, they decided to "pull" building 5. If anyone else reading this, saw this "footage" let me know. PLEASE! I remember watching that building go down too... looking exactly like the towers did. LIKE CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. Ditto above responce to "Demo footage"
Like i said before, i dont need to show you proof that it happened. I saw it. Me too Like I said before... I'm sure you're an expert in geology, and explosives, and that would qualify you to make such a remark, right? You need to somehow show me that it DIDNT happen. So far all you can tell me is that our government said thats not how it happened and that alone is enough to tell me it probably did.
I remember the USS Cole too. it was a black mark on the side of a ship. Other than that, the only thing we know is that the government says happened. They could have showed us that picture and said a kitchen fire spread to some oxygen bottles and blew a hole in the side of the ship and we wouldnt know any different, so unless you were there, whos to say thats isnt what happened?
So yes, i am 21, but i dont see how that makes it so i am too young to understand why we need to fight? I didnt live through Pearl Harbor, but i understand that because we were attacked by Japan we needed to toss some nukes their way to put them in their place. So let me get this straight. You believe that Pearl Harbor was real but not 9/11? Same government....How do know that Franklin D. Roosevelt didn't make up a lie so he could test out his new A-Bombs? Are you saying because i wasnt alive back then that i dont understand why we needed to do that? No. because im pretty sure i just explained why we did that, and im pretty sure i understand it. No.
I may be 21, and you may be 35, but don't think for one second that it makes me wrong and you right. I never said that.
Just the other day I visited Monticello, the plantation of Thomas Jefferson. In 1776 he was appointed to the "committee of five" that drafted the Declaration Of Independence. While he was the second youngest (bested only by a few years) he is given credit as the MAIN author, and was known for his immense knowledge and understanding of government and his top-notch writing ability. This is on a committee of people who other than Robert Livingston, were much, much older than him. While they may have been older than he, he was 33 when he wrote it. So that statement you made doesn't prove your point. It proves mine.
get off your high horse. 35 isnt that old or that wise. I didn't say it was.
me calling 9-11 a conspiracy isnt a fact. its my opinion. thank you the facts i have stated are not "simply wrong" and make PLENTY of sense. (to you) you need to check your facts and dont assume that every conspiracy theorist is an idiot and just watches michael moore documentaries. dont assume everyone younger than you is some young dumb punk that doesnt know shit beacuse he's never served in the armed forces. I don't but when you're 35 you will see what I mean. Until then you just won't get it. if you open your ears and your mind and admit that you dont know everything, (I do) you will learn alot more in life. LOL
I live by that idea and i am all the better for it. as a member of the armed forces you should encourage EVERYONE to speak out. No, I was taught to defend our government not to "speek out" against it being able to speak out against our government is the exact freedom you are defending. No, I defended you and YOUR right to speek out against it. you were sent to Iraq to get rid of saddam, who told his people not to question him or the government. we went there, in violation of international law and our constitution to cause a regime change, because we felt that those people were oppressed and not able to speak out against their corrupt government. for this we publicly hung Saddam Hussein. I dont think we should treat our president any differently. as a criminal. One of the differences is, if you were in Sadam's government, you'd be dead! Dubya isn't going to kill you for "speeking out"
Go look up the 35 articles of Impeachment against Bush. You will see why i feel this way.
*
FYI- I'm a registered INDEPENDANT voter. In '92 I voted Clinton. In '96 I voted Clinton. In 2000 I voted Gore. In '04 I voted Bush. That would make me "open minded". I voted Bush because 9/11 changed my life and the way I think about things. He supported my feelings about terrorism.
Your use of the word "Arabs" is derogatory, prejudice and racist.
" 'Arab' is defined independently of religious identity, and pre-dates the rise of Islam, with historically attested Arab Christian kingdoms and Arab Jews. The earliest documented use of the word "Arab" as defining a group of people dates from the 9th century BC. Islamized but non-Arabized peoples, and therefore the majority of the world's Muslims, do not form part of the Arab World but comprise what is the geographically larger and diverse Muslim World."
You should have used the term "Muslims" While still being derogatory, prejudiced and racist, it fits what you were trying to say better. BTW not all muslims are terrorists, just thought I'd let you know.
So what about my questions?
What is 9/11 supossedly hiding?
How does a plane crashing in a field cover up the other plane crashes and 9/11?
Why do you trust what you read (as long as it's left wing propeganda) and not your government?
Why are you not answering those questions? Could it be, you don't know. That you're just spewing left-wing, consiracy theory, propegandized "facts". That you really don't have your own facts, only what you have heard from your "heros".
I'm waiting.....
[putting hand up in the air] I'll take my high-5 now [/putting hand up in the air]
Edited by rwdcrx, 11 August 2008 - 03:54 PM.
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