18 replies to this topic

[Wagovan4WD]

My name is Rick and I'm in Indiana. I've recently purchased a 4WD Wagovan from a man in Virginia. It is a silver 1986 Honda Civic Wagovan 4WD with 115,000 miles and very little surface rust (only in passenger-rear wheel well).

The car is in excellent shape all around. When I bought it the clutch was out. I previously owned a 1987 Wagovan 4WD and had bought a new flywheel, clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing for it before I got ride of it. So, I put them in the Virginia car. It works perfectly and is as smooth as factory new.

Now that the car is mechanically back together and everything seems to work well, my next step will be to convert it from gasoline to alcohol. To do this I've taken a single-barrel carb from an old 1963 Ford F100 pickup truck and mounted it to the 1.5L Honda (no pictures to post yet, though I have removed all of the vaccum lines, hoses, etc., and the engine looks almost clean inside *grin*).

The first step for me was to get the car running properly on gasoline because it had sat for about a year. This is where I am right now. I have gotten it working pretty well on the standard 68 jets in my Holley 1bbl carb, however I have also purchased 66, 64, 62 and 60 jets and will be trying those for better fuel economy, efficiency, smoothness, power, etc.

Once I get the jetting worked out on gasoline to where it's decent enough (maybe not perfect), then the first switchover toward 100% alcohol will be to E85, which is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. They sell E85 most places nowadays for two reasons: 1) Because 100% alcohol is difficult to start when it's cold and 2) because if they sold E100, people would drink it as 200 proof alcohol. And, with the government taxing everything related to alcohol, they couldn't have that. I mean imagine buying nearly a gallon of 200 proof alcohol for around $3 per gallon, which is waht they would be doing when paying the price for a gallon of E100 fuel.

My next stop will be 100% ethanol after I build a distiller to produce my own. I've been reading about the process and it is amazingly simple. Plus, if you have access to apple trees, or even crabapples or other fruits which might otherwise be thrown away or not used (because your neighbors don't harvest them for example), then you can really make the system work to your advantage and for a very low cost compared to gasoline.

Ethanol alcohol boils at a temperature lower than that of water, so all you have to do is allow your fruit mix to ferment over a few days at a temperature of at least 70F (which may require heating depending on where you live) and less than 90F. Once the alcohol content reaches 20% (40 proof) the yeast will die. To remove the alcohol, bring the mix up to about 200F and let the alcohol evaporate out of the water through the distiller, which recondenses it and, once completed, what comes out is (nearly) 200 proof alcohol -- I say nearly because 200 proof alcohol will suck water right out of the atmosphere. According to everything I've read, there is no real difference in power or performance between an engine running 160 proof through 200 proof alcohol, and most home distillers can easily achieve 180 to 190 proof (it's the last 5-10% that is so hard to achieve because 200 proof alcohol will absorb water right out of the atmosphere, and it must be sealed in an air-tight container to maintain it's high proof rating for any length of time). If it ever drops too low, you can just distill it again and you'll get it back to nearly 200 proof.

Another problem with alcohol as a fuel is cold winter starting. Where I live in Indiana the temperature can routinely get own to 0F or lower in the winter at night time. Alcohol is hard to start at cold temperatures, so a pre-warmer system for the fuel will be required, one that heats up the alcohol in a separate reservoir to around 200F so vapors are emitted in gaseous form which are piped into the intake airflow. Once the engine starts and begins running it will provide enough heat to keep it going -- especially on the Hondas because the intake manifold and carb are heated by engine coolant.

This may reduce the speed at which someone can just hop in the vehicle and turn the key over when it's really cold outside, but it will also allow us to be free from energy company dependence (which is important to me). Also, you can make different kinds of alcohol from just about anything, though fruits are the easiest and require only the two-step process (ferment and distill).

Anyway, I'm going to be completing this project over the next few months and wanted to start a blog on it. The man I bought the car from in Virginia put me on to this website. He has been more than helpful in getting everything squared away so I can start driving this car. Indiana has some strict laws and rigid adherence to those laws relating to titles, bills of sale, etc. I appreciate all of his efforts in helping me in buying an out-of-state vehicile in Indiana!

If anyone is interested or has questions, let me know and I'll do my best to answer them. I'll have pictures up before long as well so check back.

- Rick C. Hodgin
- Indianapolis, IN
- 1986 1.3L Civic DX (43mpg religiously on 93 octane)
- 1986 Wagovan 4WD (no idea on gas mileage yet, though it has good power)
- '84 - '87 Hondas have been my primary mode of transportation since 1987.

[crxls]

very interesting. what kind of fuel mileage do you expect to get with the alcohol setup?

[Wagovan4WD]

very interesting. what kind of fuel mileage do you expect to get with the alcohol setup?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alcohol has less energy than gasoline, so the fuel economy will drop down up to 20% relative to gasoline. My old '87 Wagovan 4WD got around 30mpg, so I'm anticipating this one getting as low as around 20 to 24 on alcohol using the carb I have right now. Eventually I would like to convert to a carb design that I've been reading about, called a Fish Carburetor, which does not require any changes in jetting to use different grade fuels. They aren't manufactured commercially any longer, so I'll have to build one myself. They were first sold in the 1950s and the last commercial ones were sold up until the 1990s.

Additionally, in researching alcohol conversion techniques I've found that, generally speaking, doubling compression will increase fuel economy 50%. So, by increasing the compression a certain percentage I can reclaim some of that loss (something I plan to do eventually). Since I won't be racing and will be using this as a daily car, I would anticipate being able to increase compression 30% or so without problems, especially since I'm running alcohol. This should gain 10% to 15% back in fuel efficiency, thereby just about negating any loss for the conversion.

We'll see what real-world examples give us and I'll be posting them here when I find out.

- Rick

Edited by Wagovan4WD, 27 August 2006 - 09:27 PM.

[crxls]

now lets say you go on a trip out of town and you need fuel. ofcourse you can not just buy alcohol anywhere you want so what do you do in this case? use E85? if so, can you just put this in without making any changes to car adjustment?

you have my gears turning.....

[1stGENcrxLOVER]

you can run a very high c/r cuz alcohol is like 130 octane thats why they use it in top fuel drag cars

[Wagovan4WD]

now lets say you go on a trip out of town and you need fuel. ofcourse you can not just buy alcohol anywhere you want so what do you do in this case? use E85? if so, can you just put this in without making any changes to car adjustment?

you have my gears turning.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

E100 requires different jetting than E85. It will probably run, but not well. The good news is that if you want to convert your car to alcohol, you can just convert it to E85 and leave it alone. Wall Mart and other major chains are in the process of putting in E85 stations all across America, and it is where we are headed. E85 and bio-diesel are the way of the future, especially if the researchers out in California can get the imported nut variety from India to take root here. It produces a nut which is 50% oil without any processing. It burns in a smokeless, odorless flame and has been used in India as a lamp fuel for a long time. In order to convert it to bio-diesel you add 10% methanol and lye, then scrub it with a water wash. It can be manufactured in bulk for about 40 cents per gallon and is identical in performance properties to petroleum based diesel. You could consume it without getting sick (though I would not recommend it), and if it is spilled it is about as damaging to the environment as pouring out sugar, and has a nicer smell when burned too -- depending on what the source was. It's also more lubricating to the engine than petroleum diesel. Hemp is another good source for diesel because of its high oil content and other commercial uses (cloth, plastic, paper, etc.).

As for ethanol, today E85 costs $2.50 per gallon at my local station, and has been at that price even when gasoline was over $3 per gallon here recently. Ethanol is very economical compared to the current price of petroleum fuel. In fact, I'll make the argument that it will be the real, economical potential of having our entire country (and Europe and South America) go to these renewable forms of energy which will actually keep gas prices from getting hire than around $2.60 for any length of time. It's exactly because ethanol can be made in bulk for quite a bit cheaper than current gas prices, and there's profit in the gap between the two. I also believe E85 will be the one we have for a long time because people could drink E100 to get drunk (unless they add some poison to it synthetically).

But in my opinion, more important than all of that is the fact that once you make the conversion to E85 or E100, you are energy independent. No longer do you have to rely on an industry to make sure you can go. It's a lot easier to produce ethanol than it is to refine crude oil petroleum. You can do it in your garage with a few large tanks and a heat source, which could be as simple as burning wood or even hay/straw or grass. You could also do it via a type of refining trailer you've build to store the fermenting source and distill it as needed. Of course, that's if you had to do it because there were no industries around. But, it is doable.

I'm doing this because I believe ethanol is the future. In my opinion, we will have primary energy sources comprised of bio-diesel and ethanol within 15 years, and probably closer to 7 years. It's because the price of petroleum based products has now reached the point where alternative energy sources are economically viable and will become dominent because they are renewable, can be grown at home (in everyone's own country, rather than importing) and are real.

It's ironic too because the reason the diesel engine was originally invented was to make farmers energy independent. It ran on peanut oil and a farmer growing a certain percentage of peanuts could produce enough bio-diesel fuel to power their farm equipment for the remainder of their very large operation.

I had mentioned that I used to have an '87 4WD Wagovan. I kept the motor, tranny and rear-end from it when I let it go. My next project will be to get an Isuzu 2.2L diesel engine to bolt up to my 6-speed 4WD transmission, and then have an alternative form of power using bio-diesel. That will be a big chore that I will tackle over the course of next year.

- Rick

Edited by Wagovan4WD, 27 August 2006 - 10:56 PM.

[crxls]

one problem i have heard of running E85 is clogging cats. do you plan to eliminate the cat?

i may have a lot of questions for you as i have been thinking about converting one of my 5 cars to E85 to try it out since we are getting a fueling station here really soon.

[Wagovan4WD]

one problem i have heard of running E85 is clogging cats. do you plan to eliminate the cat?

i may have a lot of questions for you as i have been thinking about converting one of my 5 cars to E85 to try it out since we are getting a fueling station here really soon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, eliminate the cat. If you consider the following, the need for the cat is kind of negated. First, for whatever it is that you used to create your ethanol (corn, apples, whatever), it had already grown. It was going to decompose on its own. As such, it would've released carbon dioxide and other gases into the atmosphere, the same as if you burn it. As such, the fact that it would've already released emissions during decomposition allows the emissions which exit your tailpipe to be discounted in many ways because they are not much worse than those which would've come from decomposition.

The counter-argument is that if it weren't for the need for ethanol there would not have been as many crops grown in the first place, etc. So any negated emission values are not really negated because the crop would not have been there in the first place.

- Rick

[3GCVC]

you dont need a Cat when running ethanol the only by products from the combustion process are CO2 and water.

and what he is saying is the energy goes in a cycle plants get made into the ethanol then when burnt this releases CO2 and the plants take that CO2 up again and get made into the ethanol.

i also plan to convert to ethanol one day.
another way of solving the cold start problems associated with running E100 ethanol is to run a dual system with normal petrol that you switch over just before you turn the engine off and you start the engine on petrol until it is warm on it then switch back to the ethanol.

good luck let us know how this goes and be sure to show a "how to" on how you made your ethanol.

[badpenny]

Hmmm, I gotta use for those rotting potatoes now.

[Wagovan4WD]

[edited]
E-85 = 2 thumbs UP!  The Civic runs MUCH BETTER on the E-85 blend than it does on 91 octane (our premium fuel).  That is the primary reason I have been using it.

Excellent! I'm really looking forward to working with it. I've read that the E85 blend is very susceptible to water because petroleum and alcohol do not mix well in the presence of water. But if you're looking only at E100, then I've read the water percentages do not affect performance very much until you drop to about 20% water content.

For E100, it might also be that high water content is harmful to the system? I've read that alcohol will absolutely clean out every tiny bit of dirt anywhere in the entire fuel tract, up to and including the valves, which will likely mean many fouled plugs until it all gets blown through.

Oh, funny coincidence Wagovan4WD, I've got a 2.2l powered Isuzu P'up...I've given some thought to putting a Honda B18A in it if & when the thing gives up entirely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you want to get rid of the 2.2L prior to it giving out completely, let me know. I have the same intention, though going the other way from the 2.2 diesel to my Wagovan's 4WD tranny.

Edited by Wagovan4WD, 28 August 2006 - 12:48 PM.

[Wagovan4WD]

I've got the car running well on gasoline. I'm having a carb issue that I can't resolve (see the "Technical -> Carbs" section if you can help).

I've got an identical carb to the one I'm having trouble with on the workbench (both carbs have identical problems when put onto the Wagovan). I will be using it as a map for the conversion. The books I've read all say that I'll need a 20% to 60% increase in jet size to get it to work properly. I'm going to be starting at 20% and increasing in 5% steps until I get it right.

- Rick C. Hodgin
- Indianapolis, IN
- 1986 1.3L Civic DX (43mpg religiously on 93 octane) -- now retired
- 1986 Wagovan 4WD (25 to 35 mpg estimated on 220 miles)
- '84 - '87 Hondas have been my primary mode of transportation since 1987.

[Wagovan4WD]

I'm having a carb issue that I can't resolve (see the "Technical -> Carbs" section if you can help).<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've got the carb problem fixed. I had the float vent cap'd off. Now that I've got that resolved, I'm ready to begin.

Does anybody know the stock Honda carb jet size?

- Rick

Edited by Wagovan4WD, 05 September 2006 - 08:18 AM.

[Wagovan4WD]

Update: As of today, September 6, 2006, I have the car completely back together. The carb problem I had with the improperly rebuilt 1963 Ford F100 single-barrel Holley, as well as the early problems I had with the two stock Honda carbs, all flooding, have created a new problem. There's carbon buildup in/around the combustion chamber. As I'm driving I can hear it backfire while decelerating as the fuel is burning during the exhaust cycle. I've read several places that alcohol will completely clean out every bit of dirt, buildup and carbon in an engine and fuel system, and do so in very short order (undoubtedly fouling plugs), so this will be a good test if that is true.

I've got both stock Honda carbs setup identically right now and they both run on gasoline. When I'm finished, the first will not be changed and will still run on gasoline, the second will be modified to run on 100% ethanol (E-100 alcohol if they sold it at the pump, which is about 180 to 190 proof (5% to 10% water + 90% to 95% pure alcohol).

There are three things which must be done to make it all work.

1) Bypass the main fuel tank. I'll be using a modified blue kerosene container with a hose inside of it. The reason? Alcohol eats away at some gasoline fuel parts (lines, filters, sumps, etc.) And rather than deal with changing all of that over to alcohol up front, I will just get a stainless steel fuel line hose and run it to the 5 gallon tank. I also don't have to worry about the fuel tank being completely drained for the switchover as well.

2) Modify the jets. They need to be drilled out at least 20% larger than for gasoline as alcohol is thicker than gasoline. Alcohol burns most efficiently at a fuel:air mixture of about 9:1, compared to gasoline's 15:1. This is because alcohol has oxygen inside of it chemically and because of that will continue to burn long after gasoline would've "flooded an engine". There are many stories about racing teams forgetting to put the jets back in the carb and the engine still starting and running, just spewing fuel out the exhaust with spectacular visual images.

The jets on a stock Honda carb are accessable by taking off the plate at the top of the carb with the several bolts. Inside will be the float assembly and the two main jets are at the bottom, one for first barrel and one for second barrel. I believe a third jet exists also for the tiny 3rd barrel, but I don't have it in front of me and probably will not be modifying that jet regardless.

3) Modify the float. Alcohol is heavier than gasoline and the float will ride too high on less fuel. The weight of the float needs to be increased by 10% to compensate for this. This can be accomplished by soldering or brazing additional weight to a brass float (by weighing the float, computing the weight minus the solder or brazing rod), or epoxying weigh onto a plastic one in a similar manner. On a stock Honda carb this will not be as big of an issue as there is an adjustment screw to get the fuel to the appropriate level in the sight glass. I've noticed the float is a type of plastic and it may turn out that it is incompatible with alcohol. I will test that before I make the switch.

If anyone knows what size the stock Honda jets are for a 1986 Wagovan 4WD, then I would be greatly appreciative. If not, then I will be finding that out and buying the tiny drill bits to do the oversizing. I'm told this needs to be a fairly precise operation, so I may be turning to my local machinist buddy and using some of his tools for precise drilling.

September 6:
100% gasoline
0% alcohol

- Rick