27 replies to this topic

[Greg Gauper]

Quite the weekend. And unlike last year, we came away with the car in one piece.

The car ran great and the new motor from King Motorsports coupled with the cam I got from Blake was worth 2 seconds over my personal best. I was very surprised to find that I was the fastest GP car after practice. Unfortunately, practice doesn't count for anything.

Qualified 5th in G-prod behind the 3 VW's and a 510. I screwed up in the last qualifying session but at least I backed up my earlier practice time. Unfortunately I flat spotted a tire and visited the pea gravel. I didn't hurt anything, but the front rotors had lots of rocks imbedded in the vents and I was worried that they might have stress cracked the rotors so I put a fresh set in. My pads looked great (another big thumbs up for Raybestos pads from Porterfield.....makes my old Carbotechs feel like chalk dust in comparison) but I decided to flip them over to help even out the usual tapered wearing. More on that later.....

I did my usual pre-race brake prep (bleed and adjust) and was all set for the race. While I knew I wasn't going to catch the pole sitter, the rest of us were all within a second, so I was looking forward to a good, fun race.

We set out on our pace lap, and I proceed to follow my usual warm-up proceedure of accelerating and braking (as opposed to weaving back and forth which is dumb, unsafe, and doesn't do anything) and I notice my brake pedal is getting lower and lower.....oh crap! I find an open spot in traffic and test them, and they barely stop the car. I start thinking big picture (points wise) and decide that if they aren't up to snuff, I 'll back off and cruise around for a finish. All those years of racing Showroom Stock with OEM pads at Road America taught me how to drive without brakes, so I knew I could bring it home. I just couldn't play with anybody.

We get the green, and we funnel into turn one and I'm thinking..okay, so far so good. Then I get to the next braking area (turn 3) and I feel the brakes getting mushy again. No good. I decide to hold to my plan and keep it out of trouble. I back off early for the next few braking areas and let about 4 cars by. Then I get to the Kink and I see waving yelllow flags, but because the Kink is blind, I don't know what's ahead:



That's my white Civic in the middle just in front of the yellow Alfa Spyder. You can still see the tire smoke in the air from the wreck which happened about 2 seconds earlier. For those ofyou unfamiliar with the Kink at Road America, it is a flat out 110mph blind bend that is one of the greatest corners of any track in North America (Turn 11 at Road Atlanta used to have that honor till they changed the track ) It turns out, if I hadn't lost my brakes on the pace lap, I would have been right smack in the middle of all that crap. First time I've ever been happy about loosing my brakes. They red flag the race and I'm talking to my crew about my brakes. We can't work on the car during the red flag, and there isn't anything we can do if we could. I pump the pedal a few times and I notice they come back....sorta. Not enough to help but better than they were. I know there's no way I can catch the top three, but I can hold off the 5th place car and get 4th place points so we stay with our plan. We restart, and I play it cautious again on the first lap, letting a group of midpack E-prod & F-Prod cars by, since they were having a good race and I didn't want to screw up there race. I can keep up just fine, and after a while, the cars start getting a little nuts in front of me and I decide brakes or no brakes I'd rather be in front of this group than to follow and get caught up in their mistake. About the 4th or 5th lap, I discover that if I pump the brake pedal about a million times, the pedal pumps up to normal and the brakes work just fine. I start to feel them out and determine, yes I can start braking at my normal points and start to drop my lap times considerably. Then a few laps later, I can see the 3rd place car about 8 seconds in front of me. Holy Cow! I'm catching him! I dug down and really started to fly out there. About this time 1st Gen boy driving a 2nd gen CRX tube frame in GTL comes up behind and patiently waits till we get to the front staright before passing me, so as to not screw up my race. Thanks Bob! I start chipping away at the gap and knock about 2 seconds a lap off the gap. I start to climb the hill on the 10th lap (That may seem like a short time but remember...RA is a 4 mile long course) thinking "I got you now"......and then I see the Checker Flag Noooooooooo! I just need one more lap!!!! Turns out they had a bunch of cars off on that lap plus a bunch of oil laid down in turn 12 so the y checkered early. Crap. Oh, well. It was fun while it lasted. Turns out my last lap was my fastest and personal best, plus I was faster than the other GP excluding the winner. This includes the evil, vile wicked VW of a certain driver from down south....right Jay/Blake Okay I didnt beat him, but going faster has to count for something

We determine that the loss of pedal was caused by the pistons getting kicked back into the calipers. We suspect it was caused by my flipping the pads over and I guess the taper was worse than I suspected. I also should have shimmed up the pads to help reduce the caliper flex, which would have helped as well. Oh well.

Congrats to Dentici for winning GTL in a tube frame 2nd gen CRX and hats off to our own Bob Clark aka 1st gen boy for snagging 3rd and the final podium spot. This was Bob's first time out in the car! Other Honda's included another tube frame CRX in GTL that finished 2nd (All 3 GTL cars were King Motorsports cars BTW). Keith Gillespie ??sp?? was there from Arizona in his 1st gen CRX in FP and finished 6th. On to IRP in two weeks.

Edited by Greg Gauper, 27 June 2006 - 02:50 PM.

[racers10]

Brake pistons kicked back??? I have had my share of grief with brake boosters (now gone) and master cylinders that sucked air trough the back seal, but no problems at the calipers. Is this something to look forward to??

Great to hear that you overcame the mist and salvalged some fun and no new body work (my mantra). Good way to go, especially with IRO next week.

Maybee we can join you there next year if you promise to keep the huberbucket guys behind. As I said no new bodywork

[Greg Gauper]

I've had this problem before but never that bad, which is why I didn't recognize the problem at first. Usually it's caused by out-of-round rotors or worn bearings, but in this case I think it was due to new rotors that hadn't worn in to match the pads yet, coupled with the slight amount of taper. It's easy to adapt your driving style once you recognize the problem...just pump the pedal with your left foot about 2-3 seconds before you use the brakes and they're fine.

The stock Civic calipers really suck in terms of the amount of flex that occurs. My fix is to take some very thin brass shim stock (i.e. .003" to .005") and wrap the caliper pins with it to reduce the amount of slop. It's sorta trial and error to get the right thickness, (too thick and it binds) but it really helps to stiffen up the pedal. I also like to install shims behind the brake pad, as the pads wear, so that more of the caliper pin is engaged and less piston is exposed. This helps out as well. I use old backing plates ground down to various thickenesses, but I didn't have any thin enough to install for the race. And while the aluminum drums are ok for a few laps they do give up a bit during a race on brake killer tracks (sorry Scott, but it's a fact). I hope to have a read disc set up for next year as well as a Tilton 'race' M/C setup to get rid of my booster.

For G-Prod, Jay and I are both restricted to stock front calipers. In your case, since you run a GTL car and calipers are free, I wouldn't screw around with OEM stuff.....I'd run a real racing caliper. They are much stiffer. My second choice would be to try and make something fit from a later model Honda....something bigger & stiffer. If nothing else, you'ld have a much wider choice in pads for the newer hardware.

[racers10]

Greg on the FP and GP Civics I run the same setup, but have removed the booster and bolted the master cylinder directly to the firewall. I cut the booster up to remove the pushrod (has clevis that mounts to pedal) and ran it into the back of the master cylinder. The master has a cup on the push piston that holds the rod in place. Both drivers liked the brakes better without the booster.

It is a little tight to put together but works great. When I first tried that I just bent the stock brake lines back. I later removed the stock brake bias unit and ran the front direct off the front port of the master (with a tee in line) and the backs through a manual bias adjuster. No problems with any lock-up and drivers again happier especially in the rain. The rear brake shoes were new 8 (FP) and 2 (GP) years ago. No wear problems. I replaced the slave cylinders on each as a precaution.

I have not yet optimized the GTL brake calipers, just not enough in the overall budget. I went from APK pads to Carbotech. Dan Puskar at Carbotech has proviced a great pad that reduces fade and does not tear up the rotors. They last for 3-4 weekends. Rears are TEG calipers and stock pads that probably will outlive me.

I will have to look at reinforcing the slider pins though interesting.

Thanks Maurice

[racers10]

Just remembered, I made plates to spread out the stess to the firewall were the master bolt down. The first plate was just taking a cut off wheel and unsing the bottom of the booster. I later cut larger plates just cause I have a need to over engineer everythig.

Maurice

[kakabox]

The stock Civic calipers really suck in terms of the amount of flex that occurs.  My fix is to take some very thin brass shim stock (i.e. .003" to .005") and wrap the caliper pins with it to reduce the amount of slop.  It's sorta trial and error to get the right thickness, (too thick and it binds) but it really helps to stiffen up the pedal.  I also like to install shims behind the brake pad, as the pads wear, so that more of the caliper pin is engaged and less piston is exposed.  This helps out as well.  I use old backing plates ground down to various thickenesses, but I didn't have any thin enough to install for the race. 

And while the aluminum drums are ok for a few laps  they do give up a bit during a race on brake killer tracks (sorry Scott, but it's a fact).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting...nice tip, I might try that on a spare set of 'teg calipers I have.

Re. alum drums: good to hear someone w/"real world" experience confirm what I've suspected but never experienced.

Cheers!

[jsgprod]

but have removed the booster and bolted the master cylinder directly to the firewall. 

It is a little tight to put together but works great.

interestingThanks  Maurice

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maurice, that's the same thing I did a few years ago. It really makes me wonder why they even put power brakes on these things, you don't need it. Not only that, the brake pedal feel is dramatically improved!

I keep considering going to a dual master cylinder setup but I have become so comfortable with this configuration I doubt it’s even nessesary. One thing I have noticed though, the last time my son helped me bleed the brakes he kept saying that the pedal didn’t feel firm enough . I wasn’t very pleased with that but finished the job anyway just to get through it. Then I sat in the car and pressed the pedal myself…. I just looked at him and said that from now on “I” pump and “YOU” bleed ‘em . The pedal was as firm as it always is, he just wanted to see if he could bend my brake pedal evidently!

Greg, I’ve never experienced any of the kickback you mention. It’s been a long time since I swapped pads around like you did too but I honestly can’t remember that ever happening to me (now, boiling the fluid... Oh yeah!). I have picked up on your ‘shim’ deal since you told me about it though. GREAT idea, and it works too.

Jay

[Greg Gauper]

Maurice:

I'm glad you were able to get Carbotechs to work. Last time I tried them at Blackhawk, I wound up with pads that looked like this after 20 minutes:



Those were brand new bedded pads BTW!
So now I run Raybestoes and all is right in the world. I still have a set of Carbotechs with about 75% pad left and will probably run them at IRP since that track is so easy on brakes (it was the only track that I could drive to, race, and drive home with the same set of pads when I raced Showroom Stock with OEM pads in the 80's) and I want to save my good pads for RA & HPT. BTW - I would think you could snag some late model calipers from the boneyard for next to nothing. I really hate the stock calipers.

Jay:

I'm thinking about getting rid of the booster to save weight. I might experiment at IRP next week by blocking off the vacuum line in practice, just to get used to the change in pedal feel, before I commit to ripping the booster out. I like Maurice's idea of adding a stiffener plate to the firewall. Regarding the pad kick-back...the Civic calipers are different than the CRX calipers even though they are direct bolt-in swap. The pad fitment is different. I think the Civic caliper is worse than the CRX caliper in terms of flex, and that may be why you haven't run into kick back issues. I really hate the stock calipers but legally, I can't do anything about them.

[1st gen boy]

Thanks for the kudos Greg. There was no reason to screw up your chances by trying to force a pass at 14. I was not going to catch Dentici starting from the back of the pack (not that I could run with him). Now if I had the IT car nose on the front of the GTL car I could have bump drafted you right into 3rd! Man that GTL car is fun when everything is working right.
It was pretty cool driving both GTL cars to the grid together and then to stand on the podium in my first "June Sprints" as a driver was incredible.

Bob

[Greg Gauper]

Based on your lap times, you were really starting to get the hang of that thing Bob!

Are you running it any more this year? What other events is Jim going to run to get his 4th start to qualify for the Runoffs besides the Cat?

Just realized...Jim might be a Triple Crown contender this year. Should be a great race with Kirk & Jim going at it.

[1st gen boy]

The only time the whole weekend it ran right was during the race. It was a big learning curve especially during a race like this. We are planning to do the "Cat" and Topeka on labor day weekend. I'm not sure where I'm going to get my 4th race yet. Maybe Gratten in Aug? Arnie Loyning should be a top contender too.
Old man Jim can still drive though. Following him is a true learning experience.

Bob

[1st gen boy]

Greg,
How about Kittleson in the Fiesta. 2nd in HP.

Bob

[Doodson]

BOB, I would love to see some pictures of your GTL car. Do you have any?

Doodson

[1st gen boy]

BOB, I would love to see some pictures of your GTL car. Do you have any?

Doodson

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try this:
http://www.roadameri...6_web/index.htm
picture#06_0042.
Just a front shot of the car. To be honest we were thrashing to get the car done for the Sprints and pictures were not high on the list.

My son took some digital pictures but I, do not have the cable here at work to download them. I'll work on that. Anything in particular you would like to see?

Bob

[jsgprod]

Jay:

I'm thinking about getting rid of the booster to save weight.  I might experiment at IRP next week by blocking off the vacuum line in practice, just to get used to the change in pedal feel, before I commit to ripping the booster out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't do that Greg, it won't feel that much different. Other than having a higher pedal effort and being mushy.

We had a booster go bad in SSB one weekend at Daytona years ago in a Saturday race. Took it off at the track, back to my house and gutted it. The diaphragm was torn so we just cut it out. That’s when I noticed the two little rubber hockey pucks that were inside it. Directly in the line of force from the pedal to the master cylinder, TWO of them! About ¼” thick and 1” dia., I figured that couldn’t be helping the pedal feel too much, so I took them out. I made a couple of little ¼” aluminum discs to take their place first, however.

We figured the pedal effort would be higher but figured we could handle it. What we discovered was how much firmer the pedal felt and we didn’t even notice a difference in the pedal effort. Of course this was SS, so you know why we put it all back together with a, ahem, plugged (with epoxy) one way valve in the vacuum line and everything looked just as it was supposed to.

Jay