42 replies to this topic

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

So my son has been driving the Beater around as a daily driver since march.  He's a trooper, no AC for Texas summer.  Time to fix it!
 
History on the Beater's AC....
 
Bought the car in 1993 w 78K.  Had working AC, but in Michigan, so didn't use it much.
 
Moved to Long Island, NY.  Used it summers heading to work, again, didn't really need it.  I had replaced the radiator somewhere around 95-120K miles....  Car was a salvage title, lots of weird failures not common to Hondas.   After the job (I did), the AC stopped working. more on that in a second.
 
1994 did corporate environmental compliance.  Got my EPA 608/609 cert.  Ghosted the guys on second shift working ac and they taught me some of the basics.
 
Moved to TX in 1998 (140K - ish).  Needed AC back in action bad.  Spent 24hrs troubleshooting the AC.  To discover I had accidently swapped the radiator cooling fan connector w the radiator thermo connector.  This, after many hours of investigation, shorted out the climate control unit in the dash to the left of the radio.  Apparently, this is a common issue.  CRX#2 had identical issue.  #2 had a minor front end collision from PO. Went that car got put together, they swapped the fan/thermos connectors as well. Second time around was a quick fix.... Had to search for working climate controls at Junkies.  Took a few to find on that worked.   
 
Pulled the engine in 2004 to reseal and hose all rubber parts in engine bay.   Opened AC, Resealed the hoses/tube o-rings. redid all AC seals expect inside evaporator and compressor.  Didn't mess w oil - wish i did.
 
All worked fine until 2010-2013??  not sure when.  But pully bearing noise, so i just cut off the belt.
 
I removed the AC system minus the evap a few years ago knowing I'd need to rebuild.  And to lessen weight for all the road trips I take.
 
 
Now, as w all the refurbish jobs, this becomes a massive project to sort out the system, parts from storage and what's available today to get this working....
 
 
MadMax and I pulled all the known used parts from the storage rooms a couple weeks ago.  I have 2 complete systems pulled from CRX#4 & #9 plus 3 systems I pulled out of junkyard cars somewhere between 1999-2003.  The junkyard parts came from CRX/Sedans/Hatchs w fully charged AC systems, no obvious oil leaks, clean sight glass and all around or less than 100K miles.  TX cars, so I assume heavily used.
 
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Honda sold the Sanden TR70 and Keihin cn150l compressor version systems.   They were installed at the dealership, not factory.  Subtle differences between sanden/keihin will exist. Compressor mount and the 2 hoses connected to the suction/discharge ports are different. Also slight differences on wiring/vacuum lines between the SI and carb'd cars.  No special labels in the engine bay other than s/n labels for the Honda OEM compressor stuck on the frame near the sight glass.
 
I'm working the Sanden TR70 system on the CRX Si pictured on left.
 
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 Equipment.  
 

 
 
This is a winter long project.  I've opened several posts to capture each topic/assembly to keep this in order.  Work in progress.  Please add your experiences.
 
I assume you all have the Honda Helms Manual.  I'm focusing on what I've learned and difficulties sourcing and dismantling parts.

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

SYSTEM DISASSEMBLE
 
Everything unbolted straight forward 2-3 years ago.   Had left the evaporator in place along w the wire harness and relays. I did have a difficult time uncoupling tubes/hoses. Stuck together. I dont recall having this issue back in 2004.
 
I had removed the motor/tranny in 2004 to redo all the rubber seals due to oil leaks on engine.  i redid all the orings on the hoses/tubes back then - dont recall coupling problems in 2004. Did not open compressor or remove evaporator (in dash - pita). 

Flare Wrenches required. 16, 19, 22mm. i couldnt source a metric for the largest nut on the suction line. found a 1-1/16. Got the 16,19,22 on ebay made by Macs. Macs appeared to have the widest wrench. cheaper than snap-on. The 1-1/16 was an old school wrench mede decades ago. Will shoot a pix when they come in. I think ill need to torch heat the connections to help them along

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

SANDEN TR70 COMPRESSOR DISASSEMBLE
 
 
 
 
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Front end components all came off easily.  Be sure to keep the clutch shim off the end of the shaft.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
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image by WorldAire - off the internet.  Compressors were not serviceable from either Honda or Sanden.  Santech made the seal rebuild kits and sold them to UAC, Four Seasons,.. ect..   Honda sold clutch bearing and shaft seal kits only.
 
Exploded view of the 1988-93 version of TR70.  Find #11 is an oring on newer models.  Ours is a flat ring.  I'll most likely find a way to double up the oring somehow to take up the void in our larger groove. More to come
 
The in/outlet ports are different in this image than the 86/87. I believe the rest of the parts are identical. This image shows 3 spacer rings on the housing. 2 of the 4 compressors i pulled apart had only 2. I measured the stacks of 2 and 3 rings, both configurations total the same. Dont let this confuse u if u come across it
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
I'm calling this the snout piece (right).  There's a shaft  bearing, felt ring, 2 parts of the shaft seal inside the snout.  More on this when I completely disassemble and reassemble to figure it out.
 
10MM bolts.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Be careful of the 16-18 ball bearings when separating the main housing body from the head.  I did on a table on a towel.  
 
 
Undo the 8x 10mm bolts.  Carefully pry the top "head" off from the housing body.  Has a deep oring.  I don't recommend to wiggle much.  Compressors w freely rotating shaft most likely have good oil in them.  These will come apart easily and look like this.  The compressors I had w gummed oil...  The movable scroll stuck inside the needle bearing.  Be careful so you don't drop the moving scroll on the floor when removing.  One of mine "popped" out of the needle bearing socket and almost feel and damaged it.  One compressor w rusted bearings was locked in place.  I had to use chisels to separate the motions scroll from the head bearing
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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The compressors that had oil in them still stuck together.  Popped out the motion scroll (left)  from the stationary scroll (right).  Theres a black material on the tops of both scrolls.  I found an article from RTP resin compounding company that this is PEEK plastic.  High temp to 700F.  Be careful not to break these.  Seem very thin.   Seal the scroll for best operation.
 
Also notice and mark the "clocking" orientation of the scrolls.  Appears all of my compressors had their scroll tips (wing ends) clocked 180 from one another (stationary from moving scroll).  Mark the housing w a sharpie.  Don't rotate shaft.  Pull apart and you'll see what I mean.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
Remove the stationary scroll from the housing body.  I unscrewed the 4 12mm bolts from the bottom completely.  screwed them all back in about 2 turns each.  placed on my press.  Placed a magazine on the top to not damage the aluminum. Pressed out the stationary scroll.  Stationary scroll has the large seal.  the 4 bolts have sealing orings on them  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
Stationary scroll (left).  Body housing (right).  This exposes the inside of the high pressure chamber.  Notice the bottom of the stationary scroll...  Theres a reed type check valve.  IMO, if oil is clean like this image, I wouldn't remove it.  My other compressors w oil sludge, I'll get back to this on the reassemble portion if I had to remove and clean.

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

SANDEN TR70 COMPRESSOR REBUILD

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

SLUDGE/MOISTURE/BLACK DEATH

 

Moisture.  I'm sticking w R12 and mineral oil.  I assume mineral oil does not absorb moisture like POE and PAG.  From my readings, moisture in system reacts w the refrigerant and creates acid.   Saves me from future system flushes as long as mineral oil does not get contaminated.

 

SLUDGE:  2 of the compressors had oil sludge.  Appears the oil settled to one side of the compressors being stored for 20yrs.  I assume oil dried out??  Possible it could be contamination from PO's mixing wrong oils, getting air in system or mixing refrigerants.  The compressors w sludge were rust free.  I assume no moisture.  Current plan is to soak the condenser/evaporator in AC flush, drain, then flush multiple times w AC flush/gun as the flush chemical is quite expensive.   I placed 2 samples of the sludge in CRX#4 and soaked in AC flush and Gas.  Both dissolved in about 20 minutes.  Tells me my soak time is 20 min.  I'll slosh the solution around in the coil, redo, then power flush w the proper fluid multiple times.

 

BLACK DEATH:  A little unclear exactly what causes this.  I hear about it w automotive systems as well  I assume it the moisure reacting w the refrigerant eating away at the metal and rubber.  Then circulating through the system.  I did buy a hose from a dealership years ago having a black oil residue inside the hose.  It was a NOS hose.  I assume the tech screwed up and tossed the part back in inventory to cover his tracks???  Possible cross contamination.

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

CLUTCH/BEARING
 
 
 

Remove snap ring.
 
I supported the bottom the of pulley.  Was concerned about damaging the fins joining the geometry together.  Pressed out.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Honda appears to be only place to get specialty clutch pulley bearing.  Appears this bearing is specific to 1g/3g (85-87 Sandens).   $165 retail.  Notice the extended flange on the inner race.  Has 2 notches that mate to roll pins embedded into the aluminum housing.  Prevents bearing from rotating.  I didn't do a lengthy search for aftermarket bearing.
 
I carefully removed the seals w dental picks.  Soaked bearings in gas.  flushed w break cleaning.  Blew w compressed air.  Regreased w a syringe full of grease.  I had 4 bearings pulled off compressors.  Compared them to NOS.  The JY compressor bearing w less then 100K felt great (kept that one for future).  My original 280K car (probably had belt on compressor for 180K) was dry and noisey.  I practiced on this on.  The other 2 were medium in wear.  I reused those.

Update: i pulled the seals off 2 other bearings. Had a difficult time. the seal width is small. the inner race is raised. Hard to get the dental picks under the seal to pop them off. Tore 2 of them up. The bearings for crx 4 & 9 cleaned up really nice and felt reasonably tight. Was able to redo the 2. Since crx#1 bearing was pretty worn, i used those seals on 4&9. Worth it. Much tighter w a new grease pack.
 
Bearing: OEM P/n in photo.  actual nomenclature 83a693a.  But this is not enough info to order out notched bearings. 
 
Proper size is 30x47x18/21 w knotch.  I couldn't find a japanese brand
 
 
 
 
CLUTCH PLATE
 
Clutch is supposed to be parallel to the pulley.  One clutch was bend and rubbed on the pulley.   was able to use screw drivers to rebend the clutch to straighten it out.  Clutch gap is .013"-.026".  Adjust shims as required.
 
**** Important**** 2 of the 6 compressors i had down were missing the clutch plate.  Honda's NOS shaft seal kit came w a new screw w pre applied locktite past.  The clutch was missing from my CRX#1 Beater.  So this bolt loosens up, clutch slides off splines, and its gone.   I'll not this again on reassembly *****************

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

IDLER PULLEY/BEARING
 
Easy way is to buy the Dayco aftermarket for $65-90.
 
I rebuilt mine w NSK Japanese bearings.  $5 each.
 
Note: I opened the seals to the two used sets of pulleys making the most noise.  Both had rusted balls and races.  Makes sense for loud noise during rotation.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Dremmel off the small heads of the 4 rivets.  Roll pin punch them out.  Takes a lot of force.
 
 
NOTE: the first pulley I reassembled didn't pull the 2 halves down together all the way.  The second pulley assembly, I dremmeled the burs from the small holes as they were distorted slightly from taping and removal of rivets.  Second pulley assembled perfectly.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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I used a M4-.7 tap.  Tapped the holes out about 75% of the way.  Purposely left interference fit to help lock in place.  Use grade 10.7 - M4-.7 allen head screws.  Pressed bearing in main shell.  Lock tight and assembled.
 
Note:  The 4x pulley through holes did not require drilling for the M4x.7 tap.  The end cap plate drilled holes 5/32" bit.  This left a snug fit  helped to jam the pieces together for more interference fit.  My concern here is screws falling out and flyng parts.  Honda riveted assembly for a reason.
 
Bearing is 6202DDU  15x35x11 as replaced.  Original 6202DU NSK Japan

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

TUBES/HOSES/EVAPORATOR/CONDENSOR
 
Service not performed.  more to follow....
 
 
 
TUBES:  Plan to clean/flush metal tubes like a gun barrel cleaning kit, then use the AC flush chem/gun.
 
 
HOSES:   Send away for rebuild.  I'm concerned here for quality of rubber.  Did research on rubber hoses.  Goodyear, Gates, Parker, non name brand (china).  I'll be going w a company out of Florida who uses Goodyear.  $~65/hose

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

OIL

 

Mineral oil.  Automotive appears to be SUS525.  The Sanden TR70 is a scroll, not piston like most others.  Best I can get is Fourseaons oil 59000.

 

 

Oil Volume????  Confusing topic all over internet across many vehicles.

 

 

 

 

​

Four Seasons says this...  Same data Rockauto uses.  7.5oz from a flushed system

 

 

 

 

TCC says 4oz total system capacity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Off the beaten path.  But this is official Toyota doc for converting systems from R12 to r134a.  This era are piston type compressors.  The smaller sized cars are 100 ml or 3.3oz.  Not clear is flushed system.  But credible toyota information.  The Keihin compressor says 2.4-3oz p 3-9 Honda Helms.  Variation between manufactures and piping of course.

 

Apparently the 2000-2005 MR2s used denso scroll compressors  Denso SCS06 scroll.  Wasn't able to find oil capacity in Toyota cars w this scroll.  Another avenue to research.

 

 

 

 

 

 

​

 

Sanden website.  No data on TR70.  Have manuals on modern piston style.  Interesting notes....

 

1) Assume 1/2oz oil left in compressor after draining.

2) OCR Oil Circulation ration 3.3-8%.  % oil in suspension w refrigerant.  Max RPM is 8%.  Lowest RPM 3.3%.  Assume High speed at 8.8% @ 28oz R12 charge = 2.25 oz oil in circulation.  Guess as to how much is in remainder of system.  Amount of oil left in compressor depends on speed of compressor when shut down.  This is why, IMO, most OEMs tell the repair shop to drain the compressor and put in the same to the new one???

3) Sanden (Modern literature) says compressors shipped w full system charge.

 

 

 

I have an NOS Sanden TR70 compressor.  Not Honda OEM, but Sanden aftermarket.  I placed in an oven @160f to accelerate the draining process.  I baked the compressor for five min and rotated 45 degrees each time in sync w the scrolls to get best drainage

 

 

I was able to remove 3.72 oz.  Assume Sanden's 1/2 oz left behind.  Thats 4.22oz shipped from factory.

 

 

 

HONDA HELMS - 1987 CRX (there are not under hood stickers)

 

Specification Section.  Page 3-9 States 

 - Keihin compressor 2.4-3oz

 - Sanden compressor 4.1-4.7oz

 

AC Section (for repair/replace service)

 - Page 24-5 hose/tube/condensor/drier add 1/3 oz, evaporator add 1oz.  Total = 3.7 oz

 - Page 24-13: compressor replacement: remove 1oz from factory compressor before installation of replacement compressor.

 

 

 

THEORY/REASONING FOR OIL CHARGE AFTER 100% FLUSH:

 

Right off the bat, I know Four seasons and Rock Auto are wrong.  Honda has different specs for Keihin/Sanden.  The 7.5oz is over charge to cover themselves.  Maybe this is part of why so many rebuilt compressors fail???

 

Per Sanden OCR, Theres at least 2.25oz oil in a system suspension at full RPM plus residual interior coating and collection points.  They say at max rpm, there should be 1.5 oz in the compressor. Thats 3.75oz for a piston compressor. 

 

Honda say replacing everything per the piece part process is 3.7oz (hoses/components) plus compressor (assume Sanden factory charge is 4.22-1ounce removed) = 3.22.   total of 3.22 + 3.7 = 6.92oz.  

 

Honda also says Sanden compressor 4.1-4.7oz

 

 

 

SUMMARY

Low end for flushed system appears to about 4.5oz.  But this number appears to hold credibility coming from Hondas Sanden compressor data and my NOS Sanden aftermarket compressor.

 

High end of four seasons 7.5oz and Hondas piece part (6.92 or 8.1oz).  7.5oz as a high end appears plausible.

 

Other readings tell me too much oil will over work/pressure system.  Coat too much oil on condenser to reduce cooling.  This one article say no more than 2 ounces over charge at max.

 

I'd guess going by Sanden NOS 4.22 + statement "compressors shipped fully charged", and Hondas notation of replacing a compressor by removing 1oz,..  gives me confidence of 4.4oz for the entire system from flushed and dry.

 

Probably safe bet is 6oz.  Middle of 4.5 and 7.5.    i think I'll lean to 5.5oz unless I head more information.  Thats an ounce over Honda's lowest case of 4.4oz.

 

I think this is over-thought and the correct answer for Sanden is 4.4oz.

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

SPARE

[greasemonkeyreborne 5x1g's]

FILTER/DRIER/DESICCANT

Doing a science project on crx#1s accumulator. Cut it open to remove the desiccant. Years ago, there was another group i worked w that molded desiccant blocks for missile nose cones. i recall they would oven back those desiccant blocks during repair to reuse.

Doing my own experiment to see if i can revive the OEM Honda accumulators.

More to come

[CSPCRX]

I love how you are not afraid to take things apart and rebuild them!  In for results.  I believe the mounts are different between the two compressors but either can be used with the correct mount.

[na-spirit]

Nice write up so far Dave! looks like your having fun

 

Btw I'll have a 150k ew engine swap for sale soon if you want more oem parts! I'll keep you posted

[CSPCRX]

EW1 or EW3

[na-spirit]

EW3