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Can D Series Motor/trans Use Intermediate Shafts?


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#1
PuddleSkipper

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Hi, I'm looking down the road to performance applications. Currently the custom length Hasport axle that goes with my AFD2 D series swap hits on the torsion bar and it doesn't allow full suspension travel. It's totally fine for now as a DD and realize this was a result of moving the motor back to create more room up front and save $ but am slightly jealous of you B series guys because you have an intermediate shaft that relocates the pivot point and changes the angle of the Driver's side CV shaft instead of the long shallow angle of a super long shaft. Wondering if it's possible to adapt this set up to a D series engine/trans. I know that guys that do the D series swap with the CG trans have to tap holes in pre-existing holes on the block so they can use the intermediate shaft, but that is the shaft for that transmission. I am thinking this would work. but have never messed with anything that has intermediate shafts. At the very least I would have to have a custom intermediate shaft with a inner CV joint for the D series trans as well as a custom 86-89 integra axle with a inner D series CV joint as well. The Driver's side axle could just be the stock 86-89 Integra. Thanks in advance, Jeremiah

 

-Sorry forgot to mention that by D series trans I mean 92 up because that is what the Hasport AFD2 requires.

 

Axle resting on torsion bar before loaded suspension

 

LHandedHasportAxleClearance2_zps496b448b

 

and after I let the car rest on it's suspension

 

Hasportaxleclearance4_zps1862ac01.jpg



#2
Zephyr

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On my racecar I used a CG transmission and axles with a single cam D. I have used an A6 and a JDM ZC from an 00 Integra. On both blocks the area on the back was already tapped for the intermediate shaft so that wasn't an issue. The hole alignment of the bracket was. Only one hole lined up and I felt that wasn't enough so I cut and rewelded the bracket. Mount wise I used all the stock mounts that went with the CG transmission and then had to get a little creative with the upper mount for the engine. Again, only a couple holes lined up with what I believe is where the power steering pump attached. I think I have pictures in my gallery of the parts I modded. I also posted pictures on the thread on Honda Tech as well. It wasn't a difficult project, it just took time to map it all out being that not many people had done it and those who had did not have information to share. Obviously you'll need to use the CG clutch. In the CG I used an MFactory diff for a B16 transmission. http://www.redpepper...MG0275.JPG.html

 

Z


1985 CRX Si H2 Racecar
2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS with a WRX swap

#3
silentdork818

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Most of the 1.6 liter D-series blocks will at least have the bosses for the holes (Y8s maybe being an exception). The 1.5 liter blocks do not. Any 88+ ZC intermediate shaft should bolt to the engine.

Normal D-series transmissions will not accept the larger diameter output shaft. You will need to, at the very least, swap the side gears in the diff to larger diameter ZC-style pieces so the axles fit. If you can find a Japanese S20 tranny that originally used an intermediate shaft, that should be plug-and-play with the AFD2 kit. Obviously, a new custom axle with a bigger inner joint will be needed on the passenger side as well.


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#4
PuddleSkipper

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Thanks guys! I see what you mean about rewelding the tabs Zephyr. Also thought it was interesting you mentioned that Japanese S20's may have come with intermediate shafts silentdork. But I think I am approaching this from the wrong direction. My goal was simply to give some clearance between the axle and the torsion bar so the suspension could fully extend. Maybe if I re-index my torsion bar that would give me the clearance I need between the axle and the torsion bar? Can I do this and still use stock struts? How much does moving the torsion bar one notch lower the car?



#5
silentdork818

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That may work. Just buy a set of Chedda's extended top hats to recover lost suspension travel.


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#6
PuddleSkipper

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Been doing a bunch of research thanks you to guys!!
 
For those interested this is all in reference to modern D series swaps for our cars.
 
Lowering a car is a great simple solution, however, in higher hp applications torque steer can result from unequal length half shafts. There are two ways to fix this:
1) Buy a Limited Slip Differential and this will eliminate torque steer. I've seen these for $280/free shipping (not a good choice IMO) to $885/FS and are a wearable item due to the clutches inside so they do need rebuilding. You do have to split the case and install this.
2)Use equal length half shafts (cv) with a intermediate shaft behind the motor. This is pretty much a non wearable item, with the exception of the bearing, and is installed outside the tranny. Also if you desired a spool I did see a post on a car that was on Pinks where they welded up the differential:cheap. Not sure about driveablility though. 
 
The Intermediate shaft option was only available on JDM cars. The JDM equivalent or the bellhousing that matches the D series tranny is the ZC series, so you will need a ZC tranny for a ZC intermediate shaft. Far as I know there are only 3 generations ZC trannies that used intermediate shafts, maybe more but I think if there is it must share the same intermediate shaft as the 3rd generation of manual trannys that came with intermediate shafts, or they just used unequal length cv shafts. So when I talk about generations of ZC's, although there were many kinds of motors, I will be talking about the generation in reference to the transmission, and only the trannys that used the intermediate shaft. There are three intermediate shafts for three generations of ZC trannys. The first one is for the 86-89 Integra (also termed a ZC) with a cable clutch, the 88-91 ZC with a cable clutch, and the 92-95 DOHC ZC with the hydro clutch (this would be the one Silentdork refered to as the Japanese S20). I also might mention that the 92-95 SOHC transmission did not use the intermediate shaft, it used unequal length axles. Now I'm sure your thinking like I was.........that I could just get the intermediate shaft and use it on my D series tranny. Nope, while the newer ZC trannys uses the same differential the SI/EX the differential, which requires a bigger carrier bearing than the LX/DX, it also takes the heavier duty Integra inner CV joints. Depending on the application this may take a custom axle set up as to I have seen several newer swaps and they talk about swapping the inner cups (inner cv joint) or the outer cups (outer cv joints). For the 84-87 civic/crx crowd our cars already came out with the 86-89 Integra style motor/trans in Japan. Depending on your engine choice your D series block may or may not have the holes to mount the intermediate shaft. Like Silentdork mentioned about the 1.5L do not have the provisions for mounting the intermediate shaft. Never fear though! Within the last year or so Hush22 makes an adapter that allows you to use preexisting holes (pics below), but due to the respacing of the alternator though this may not work with hasport D series mounts, for example if you decided to use the 92-95 DOHC ZC trans with the intermediate shaft coupled with a 1.5L you might have real problems trying to get that alternator next to the frame rail since you already had to dent it to get the alternator to fit in the first place. If you do a D series swap with this transmission and motor mounts like Zephyr did you'll have to do some minor welding but swapping a D series this way won't interfere with the torsion bars so you can resume stock ride height and if your using a 1.5L I am sure you'd have plenty of clearance for the Hush22 intermediate shaft adapter. You do loose the extra space though that Hasport provided for you when the moved the motor back for a turbo though. That is always been the nature of the swap though, your doing something that was never originally designed and I have seen several say that they are content to have their B series without AC. I have concluded that the 88-91 ZC trans at this point not a viable solution, but someone may get bored later and do the leg work to figure out just how to do it. :D Think it can be done the with a combination of a Hasport Right hand bracket rewelded, a rewelded 87-87 civic/crx engine bracket complete with chedda's bushings, and the way RTM did his rear mount in the swaps section. The 92-95 DOHC ZC trans with intermediate shaft is the option to use with the Hasport mounts. The only hitch to the 92-95 DOHC ZC trans is that if you choose to use the intermediate shaft it is hard to find. I have heard that you can find them on thezcr.com by posting in WTB section, Hmotorsonline also occassionally gets them, and I believe jdmtigerjapanese.com will also sell just the intermediate shaft by itself. You have to call these places every 2-3 weeks as they get new shipments to see if they have gotten one to sell yet. All the other JDM places may list the trannys but don't carry the intermediate shafts. Some places have the intermediate shafts but will only sell them with the transmission (wise IMO). If someone ends up with one I am sure they can be copied. I have gotten a quote of $300 from a place online I called called Hudlow Axle. I called Raxles and was disapointed. I don't know who I talked to, sounded like an older guy, maybe even the owner, but he said he couldn't do it, that a way would have already been found to do the ZC intermediate shaft if it could have been done, that he wasn't stupid, if he could do it he'd be rich, he would loose money on the deal, and to make any sort of profit on it he'd have to charge $1000. That was a worthless pointless call and I lost huge respect for Raxles, especially since there business is custom cv axles. Hudlow said they could do it for $300...........I'm just saying.........So posting some info below that might prove helpfull for people doing the D series swap and will repost all this on my build thread. Also will try to get some better pics of the intermediate shafts.
 
Hush22 adapter
 
316613_225550890840108_976831633_n_zps20
 
308982_225550937506770_647160803_n_zps66
 
317047_226014900793707_1497764278_n_zpsf
Additional Pics of adapter on facebook
 

Where to buy Hush Performance ZC Intermediate shaft adapter

http://hushperforman...e-zc-is-adapter

 
Additional info I found on Honda Tech from a user named jlicrx
"84-87 JDM CRX Si/Civic Si "browntop" DOHC ZC, 86-87 JDM Integra "browntop" DOHC ZC, 88-89 JDM Integra "blacktop" DOHC ZC all used the CG transmission same as in the 86-89 Integra D16A1 - has separate cover for 5th gear - uses same intermediate shaft as the 86-89 USDM Integra D16A1 - doesn't bolt right up to any other D-series blocks and has different mounts from 88-91 (picture below)
 
88-91 JDM CRX Si/Civic Si "blacktop" DOHC ZC uses L3 transmission similar to 88-91 USDM CRX/Civic - uses ZC intermediate shaft (with female outer end) and the larger 90-93 Integra type axles
 
92-95 JDM Civic "blacktop" DOHC ZC uses transmission similar to 92-95 USDM Civic - uses ZC intermediate shaft (with male outer end) and larger 94-00 Integra type axles - has hydraulic clutch"


#7
PuddleSkipper

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B series Hydro intermediate shaft (92-95 top) vs Cable intermediate shaft (88-91 bottom)
 
CableIntermediateShafttopvsHydroIntermed
 
Also many claims say that a B series will work, but although it does plug into the differential, it's too long.
 
zchydrohalfshaft_zpsc135a7b1.jpg
 
This is supposed to be a shaft that was poorly modified to fit the ZC trans, I found the top labeled 86-89 CG intermediate shaft but it doesn't look like that style and looks like another B series. Too bad the full length isn't shown. The bottom is supposed to be a ZC intermediate shaft but the pattern looks like a B series.
 
DOHCZCIntermediateShaftvsCGTransIntermed
 
Here's more what I was picturing when I said it was possible to make one and just get the shaft made.
 
1006072153_zps5cc1f647.jpg

 

1006072151_zps96f35ec6.jpg

 

And I found measurements on nzhondas.com by a user named NAspirated
"After having the exact opposite of this problem currently, that info there isnt quite correct.

EF8/9 = 420mm long
DA6/8 = 400mm long
Dohc ZC = 370mm long.

the Dohc ZC shaft will fit the B series gearboxes, but doesnt match the engine mounting points due to being too short.

there also seem to be differences in mounting point offsets of the DA6/8 shaft vs the EF8/9 shaft. the EF8/9 mounting bracket is located towards the centre of the bearing case, where the DA6/8 is parallel with the outside of the bearing case.



 
quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Deanis viewpost-right.png
after a few months of waiting and a few intermediate shafts sent to me swearing they will fit an ef9 i have finally got one that is genuine.

the top shaft is the genuine EF8/9 one. its 420mm long. 

the lower one is the same as a DA6, DA9, DOHC ZC and anything else that isnt EF8/9. its 400mm long.

CIMG2554.jpg

took the civic for a drive and the inner cv didnt explode this time. mint beer.png
 
Interesting Link - 460 whp D series using welded differential and intermediate shaft
The Full-Race Pink SOHC Story