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I think he meant CNC?
33
The Kakabox Build
Started by kakabox, Sep 23 2005 04:31 PM
2000 replies to this topic
#331
Posted 01 June 2006 - 12:07 PM
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#332
Posted 01 June 2006 - 12:13 PM
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- Leadfoot
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QUOTE
w/my NC high speed bandsaw
NC 5-axis milling machine
1. These above in particular NC 5-axis milling machine
2. Gotcha
3. Use lots of air freshener!
JS
QUOTE
I think he meant CNC?
It's possible but let's see what interesting info he comes up with. It's worth the wait!
Edited by strudel, 01 June 2006 - 12:15 PM.
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#333
Posted 01 June 2006 - 12:58 PM
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QUOTE (kakabox @ Jun 1 2006, 08:54 AM)
...but I figure any dog kaka on my shoe should leave enough of a "logo" behind to let people know who the manufacturer is! 
I would have just pee'd on it.
#334
Posted 01 June 2006 - 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (strudel @ Jun 1 2006, 10:13 AM)
QUOTE
w/my NC high speed bandsaw
NC 5-axis milling machine
NC 5-axis milling machine
1. These above in particular
QUOTE
I think he meant CNC?
It's possible but let's see what interesting info he comes up with. It's worth the wait!NC = Numerical Controlled as in Computer Numerically Controlled, or CNC machining.
"...let's see what interesting info he comes up with. It's worth the wait!" Oh, wait, didn't you mean to say 'BBB' instead of 'info'...?
Edited by kakabox, 01 June 2006 - 01:13 PM.
#335
Posted 01 June 2006 - 01:15 PM
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- Leadfoot
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QUOTE
"...let's see what interesting info he comes up with. It's worth the wait!" Oh, wait, did you mean to say 'BBB' instead of 'info'...?
At least I know what that stands for
JS
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#336
Posted 04 June 2006 - 04:25 AM
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Wiring Changes for: USDM ’86-’87 D16A1 Swap Into ’86 CRX (or ’86-’87 Civic Si)
References:
Sport Compact Car, January 2002 issue; Hybrid How-To; No. 5
1987 Acura Integra Factory Service Manual
Haynes Repair Manual, Honda Civic; 1984-1991
Disclaimers:
1. The wire colors noted here are what I found on my donor ‘teg and my ’87 Si and confirmed w/the referenced service manuals unless otherwise mentioned.
2. The KAKABOX is not up and running at the time of this writing, so, the wiring changes have not been proven. However, in theory, and according to my references, the engine should run exactly like it did in the ‘teg I pulled it from. I have done a fair amt of research and have studied both cars’ wiring diagrams; I believe the following wiring information to be correct. However, don’t cry to me if it doesn’t work for you; use this write up at your own risk!
The Civic Si ECU needs to be replaced w/the ‘teg ECU. The donor ‘teg’s emission control box needs to be installed too. The ‘teg control box bolts up to the passenger side firewall using two existing tapped holes on the firewall.
Si Chassis Wiring Harness Changes:
Remove the Si's Control Box that's on the driver's side inner fender and throw it in the trash! You won't be needing it. Remove the connector boot and expose the wires...you'll be using some but not all of these wires:
The Si uses an Idle Control Solenoid Valve (ICV) to control the idle. It is located inside the Si emission control box; it is not used in the swap. The connector for it (C-111) can be cut off:
Instead of using the Si's ICV to control the idle, the ’86-’87 ‘teg D16A1 uses an Electronic Idle Control Valve (EICV). To connect to the EICV, which is on the back side of the intake manifold, re-route the Green wire w/the White stripe (G/W) from the Si control box connector (C-110). This wire comes from the Si ECU A11 pin and goes to the Si’s ICV. The G/W wire needs to be rerouted to provide input for the ‘teg’s EICV (note: the ‘teg’s EICV gets its ECU input from pin A11 also).
...it's the wire labelled 'EICV' in the pic.
Change the end pin on the G/W wire to match the pins used in the square yellow plug (C-27) which is located a few inches away on the left fender well. I took the pins out of the cut off Si ICV connector (C-111) and spliced one on the end of the G/W wire; they’re the same as the ones used in the yellow plug (C-27). Plug the newly pinned G/W wire into the square yellow connector (C-27) in the empty spot, shown here:
...done:
Three other wires from the old Si Control Box connector (C-110) must now be extended to reach the ’86-’87 D16A1 control box now on the firewall: the Red w/White stripe (R/W), the Green w/Black stripe (G/Blk) and the Black w/Yellow stripe (Blk/Y):
1. Cut and extend the R/W wire that goes to the old Si’s Purge Cutoff Solenoid. It needs to be extended and connected to the R/W wire on the ‘teg’s Control Box C-65 connector; it goes to the ‘teg’s Purge Cutoff Solenoid Valve inside the control box.
2. Cut and extend the G/Blk wire that goes to the old Si’s Cold Advance Solenoid Valve. It needs to be extended and connected to the White w/Yellow stripe (W/Y) wire on the ‘teg’s Control Box C-65 connector; it goes to the ‘teg’s Ignition Control Solenoid Valve inside the control box.
3. Cut and extend the Blk/Y wire that goes to the old Si’s Control Box. It needs to be extended and connected to the Blk/Y wire on the ‘teg’s Control Box C-65 connector…it completes the circuit for the Purge Cutoff & Ign Control Solenoid Valves.
Here are the three wires w/their extensions:
The other wires from the Si's Control Box harness not used can be "capped" off.
...continued...
References:
Sport Compact Car, January 2002 issue; Hybrid How-To; No. 5
1987 Acura Integra Factory Service Manual
Haynes Repair Manual, Honda Civic; 1984-1991
Disclaimers:
1. The wire colors noted here are what I found on my donor ‘teg and my ’87 Si and confirmed w/the referenced service manuals unless otherwise mentioned.
2. The KAKABOX is not up and running at the time of this writing, so, the wiring changes have not been proven. However, in theory, and according to my references, the engine should run exactly like it did in the ‘teg I pulled it from. I have done a fair amt of research and have studied both cars’ wiring diagrams; I believe the following wiring information to be correct. However, don’t cry to me if it doesn’t work for you; use this write up at your own risk!
The Civic Si ECU needs to be replaced w/the ‘teg ECU. The donor ‘teg’s emission control box needs to be installed too. The ‘teg control box bolts up to the passenger side firewall using two existing tapped holes on the firewall.
Si Chassis Wiring Harness Changes:
Remove the Si's Control Box that's on the driver's side inner fender and throw it in the trash! You won't be needing it. Remove the connector boot and expose the wires...you'll be using some but not all of these wires:
The Si uses an Idle Control Solenoid Valve (ICV) to control the idle. It is located inside the Si emission control box; it is not used in the swap. The connector for it (C-111) can be cut off:
Instead of using the Si's ICV to control the idle, the ’86-’87 ‘teg D16A1 uses an Electronic Idle Control Valve (EICV). To connect to the EICV, which is on the back side of the intake manifold, re-route the Green wire w/the White stripe (G/W) from the Si control box connector (C-110). This wire comes from the Si ECU A11 pin and goes to the Si’s ICV. The G/W wire needs to be rerouted to provide input for the ‘teg’s EICV (note: the ‘teg’s EICV gets its ECU input from pin A11 also).
...it's the wire labelled 'EICV' in the pic.
Change the end pin on the G/W wire to match the pins used in the square yellow plug (C-27) which is located a few inches away on the left fender well. I took the pins out of the cut off Si ICV connector (C-111) and spliced one on the end of the G/W wire; they’re the same as the ones used in the yellow plug (C-27). Plug the newly pinned G/W wire into the square yellow connector (C-27) in the empty spot, shown here:
...done:
Three other wires from the old Si Control Box connector (C-110) must now be extended to reach the ’86-’87 D16A1 control box now on the firewall: the Red w/White stripe (R/W), the Green w/Black stripe (G/Blk) and the Black w/Yellow stripe (Blk/Y):
1. Cut and extend the R/W wire that goes to the old Si’s Purge Cutoff Solenoid. It needs to be extended and connected to the R/W wire on the ‘teg’s Control Box C-65 connector; it goes to the ‘teg’s Purge Cutoff Solenoid Valve inside the control box.
2. Cut and extend the G/Blk wire that goes to the old Si’s Cold Advance Solenoid Valve. It needs to be extended and connected to the White w/Yellow stripe (W/Y) wire on the ‘teg’s Control Box C-65 connector; it goes to the ‘teg’s Ignition Control Solenoid Valve inside the control box.
3. Cut and extend the Blk/Y wire that goes to the old Si’s Control Box. It needs to be extended and connected to the Blk/Y wire on the ‘teg’s Control Box C-65 connector…it completes the circuit for the Purge Cutoff & Ign Control Solenoid Valves.
Here are the three wires w/their extensions:
The other wires from the Si's Control Box harness not used can be "capped" off.
...continued...
Edited by kakabox, 07 June 2006 - 11:49 PM.
#337
Posted 04 June 2006 - 04:38 AM
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...Si Chassis Harness Changes (continued):
I enclosed the three extended wires in split conduit and passed the wires thru the firewall on the driver's side using an existing grommet. From there, they went across the firewall on the inside and out to the eng bay thru an existing grommet on the passengers side.
From the donor 'teg, I cut off the portion of the donor ‘teg’s chassis harness that goes to the control box, including the C-65 plug. The C-65 plug is where you splice in the three extended wires.
I spliced the three extended wire to the C-65 plug’s pig tails: the R/W wire from the Si's Control box splices to the R/W wire @ C-65; G/Blk from Si Control box splices to the W/Y wire @ C-65; the Blk/Y from the Si Control Box splices to the Blk/Y @ C-65:
MAP sensor wiring:
Where the Si has the MAP on the firewall, the 'teg Control Box has it inside. It has a specific plug, so, to connect the Si MAP sensor wires to the ‘teg control box, use the ‘teg MAP plug cut from the ‘teg harness...
Cut off the Si MAP connector and splice the wires to the 'teg MAP connector: R wire to R; W wire to W/R; Br/W wire to Br/W...like so:
’86-’87 D16A1 Engine Harness Changes:
Use the ’86-’87 ‘teg engine harness. In the rectangular harness connector on the passenger side (C-69) of the engine, change the pin-outs on four wires to make the Si cabin harness compatible w/the ‘teg eng harness. The changes have to be made because the two wires that feed the back up lights are in the pin locations for the temperature and oil idiot-light senders, and vice-versa.
In the C-69 connector switch the position of these four wires: switch positions of the Green/Black wire w/the Yellow/Green wire; switch positions of the Yellow wire w/the Yellow Red wire. Here's the D16A1 C-69 connector stock:
Use a thin pick tool to lift the tab that holds each spade connector in the plug, pull out the wires and make the switch.
This is how the wires should look after the switching:
That's it! That is all the wiring changes required for a '86-'87 D16A1 engine swap in a '85-'87 Si chassis. Time to wrap it up and make it look presentable:
The D16A1 should now operate just like it did in the ’86-’87 Integra it came from!
Cheers!
I enclosed the three extended wires in split conduit and passed the wires thru the firewall on the driver's side using an existing grommet. From there, they went across the firewall on the inside and out to the eng bay thru an existing grommet on the passengers side.
From the donor 'teg, I cut off the portion of the donor ‘teg’s chassis harness that goes to the control box, including the C-65 plug. The C-65 plug is where you splice in the three extended wires.
I spliced the three extended wire to the C-65 plug’s pig tails: the R/W wire from the Si's Control box splices to the R/W wire @ C-65; G/Blk from Si Control box splices to the W/Y wire @ C-65; the Blk/Y from the Si Control Box splices to the Blk/Y @ C-65:
MAP sensor wiring:
Where the Si has the MAP on the firewall, the 'teg Control Box has it inside. It has a specific plug, so, to connect the Si MAP sensor wires to the ‘teg control box, use the ‘teg MAP plug cut from the ‘teg harness...
Cut off the Si MAP connector and splice the wires to the 'teg MAP connector: R wire to R; W wire to W/R; Br/W wire to Br/W...like so:
’86-’87 D16A1 Engine Harness Changes:
Use the ’86-’87 ‘teg engine harness. In the rectangular harness connector on the passenger side (C-69) of the engine, change the pin-outs on four wires to make the Si cabin harness compatible w/the ‘teg eng harness. The changes have to be made because the two wires that feed the back up lights are in the pin locations for the temperature and oil idiot-light senders, and vice-versa.
In the C-69 connector switch the position of these four wires: switch positions of the Green/Black wire w/the Yellow/Green wire; switch positions of the Yellow wire w/the Yellow Red wire. Here's the D16A1 C-69 connector stock:
Use a thin pick tool to lift the tab that holds each spade connector in the plug, pull out the wires and make the switch.
This is how the wires should look after the switching:
That's it! That is all the wiring changes required for a '86-'87 D16A1 engine swap in a '85-'87 Si chassis. Time to wrap it up and make it look presentable:
The D16A1 should now operate just like it did in the ’86-’87 Integra it came from!
Cheers!
#338
Posted 04 June 2006 - 10:18 AM
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- Leadfoot
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Nice work J. A bit easier than the 88-89 conversion as you don't have to deal with the electronic advance. Have you looked at the alternator connections yet? I know that in mine there was a wire that had to be added. Wesider has had a problem with his 86-87 that I think he now has resolved. It was to do with the idiot light staying on indicating no charge. The Si I think has only 3 wires and the Teg has 4.
Just an aside. Other than the MAP sensor the control box could be discarded if one wishes as it works without one.
Does the 86-87 have an ELD? If so what have you done with that? I have a little bypass that I can forward on if you need one. JS
Just an aside. Other than the MAP sensor the control box could be discarded if one wishes as it works without one.
Does the 86-87 have an ELD? If so what have you done with that? I have a little bypass that I can forward on if you need one. JS
If you want one of these Logos send me a PM
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#339
Posted 04 June 2006 - 12:03 PM
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#340
Posted 04 June 2006 - 12:06 PM
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I am soooo, excited. Thanks for putting pictures to that wiring writeup. AWESOME.
Honda, because it's hard to look baller in your mom's Volvo.
The entire tool selection at Sears or the contents of a Snap-On truck will do you no good if you do not know how to use them.
The entire tool selection at Sears or the contents of a Snap-On truck will do you no good if you do not know how to use them.
#341
Posted 04 June 2006 - 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (strudel @ Jun 4 2006, 08:18 AM)
Nice work J. A bit easier than the 88-89 conversion as you don't have to deal with the electronic advance. Have you looked at the alternator connections yet? I know that in mine there was a wire that had to be added. Wesider has had a problem with his 86-87 that I think he now has resolved. It was to do with the idiot light staying on indicating no charge. The Si I think has only 3 wires and the Teg has 4.
Just an aside. Other than the MAP sensor the control box could be discarded if one wishes as it works without one.
Does the 86-87 have an ELD? If so what have you done with that? I have a little bypass that I can forward on if you need one. JS
Just an aside. Other than the MAP sensor the control box could be discarded if one wishes as it works without one.
Does the 86-87 have an ELD? If so what have you done with that? I have a little bypass that I can forward on if you need one. JS
Thanks
The alternator wiring is the same. One wire color is different, but the same number of wires are used. It might be a CDM thing.
Here's the '87 Si alternator wiring on the Si eng harness:
...and here's the alternator wiring on the USDM '87 D16A1 'teg eng harness:
As far as retaining the MAP and discarding the control box is concerned: I don't know if it would or would not work w/out the Purge Cut-off Sol and Ign Control Sol Valves hooked up. None of my resorces/references mentioned doing that. It may run, but I'd rather have the engine run (and idle) exactly like it was running (it was running like a new car) when I removed it from the donor 'teg...and pass emissions too! I'll keep the factory eng mangement controls in place.
No ELD on '86-'87 USDM D16A1 'tegs...thanks for the offer though.
Cheers!
#342
Posted 04 June 2006 - 01:21 PM
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- Leadfoot
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Interesting. Alternator wiring must be different on the 88-89. Sonny ran an extra wire back to the ECU I believe. One day I will visit the wiring on my car again. It's all bundled up and I don't particularly want to open it all up again.
All the control box stuff was removed from mine and passed CA smog. It has a sticker and paperwork. It is a USDM car.
As far as charts, I agree but that was all I had to offer. Pictures are the Cats Ass or dub in "Kakabox" as it were! It was named after the cat, right? JS
All the control box stuff was removed from mine and passed CA smog. It has a sticker and paperwork. It is a USDM car.
As far as charts, I agree but that was all I had to offer. Pictures are the Cats Ass or dub in "Kakabox" as it were! It was named after the cat, right? JS
If you want one of these Logos send me a PM
Austin Mini Van with DOHC Honda HP
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#343
Posted 04 June 2006 - 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (strudel @ Jun 4 2006, 11:21 AM)
It was named after the cat, right? JS
...well not really...the KAKABOX name came from another car buddy of mine who says "kaka" in place of sh*t all the time. So, when he describes a crappy, lame old car, he calls it a "kakabox". I guess he thought it was perfect for the Si...esp, before I got my "toothbrushes" working on it! He may have to change the name after he sees the final product!
Nicholas the cat is the official KAKABOX Racing Team mascot...the official KAKABOX Racing Team slogan is: "We keep the kaka in the box"...kinda a double meaning thang going on
...hence, the avatar. Mr. Nicholas posing for the camera:
...he's MUCH bigger in person!
Edited by kakabox, 04 June 2006 - 02:20 PM.
#344
Posted 05 June 2006 - 10:23 PM
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Master Cylinder for '86-'89 Integra 4 Wheel Disc Swap:
For the 1/3g owners choosing to use the 1g Integra disc brakes in the front AND rear, there seems to be some confusion as to what components to use to maintain the same level of operation and feel as in the Integra they came from.
It's recommended that you use a 'teg proportioning valve from the donor car to proportion the fluid correctly to the rear calipers. The 1/3g rear drum brake wheel cylinders require a different volume of fluid and pressure compared to the 'teg calipers, so, OE 1/3g ppv will not work optimally w/the 'teg rear calipers.
In order for the rear brake circuit to have the correct fluid pressure/volume to operate the larger 'teg front calipers and the rear calipers the same way they did in the 'teg, you need a master cylinder with a bore diameter the same as the 'tegs: 7/8" diameter. The trouble is, the 'teg mc does not fit the 1/3g booster. The male portion at the base of the 'teg mc is ~5 mm larger in diameter than the female portion of the 1/3g booster it must fit in. The 2 bolt pattern is correct, but, unless you machine, file, grind or sand the diameter down to match the booster I.D., it not going to fit.
It seems that many people have succesfully machined down the '86-'89 'tegs mc to fit the booster w/no sealing issue whatsoever. Other people aren't so sure about removing material from a mission critical part like a brake mc.
Thanks to an excellent tip from DEIVIONCRX: "i think the key is to use the 85 3bbl carb prelude master clyinder, its the right proporsion and will bolt directly to the stock 1/3g booster"...I ordered one to check it out.
Well...I'll be damn!
It works just as advertised! 
I ordered from Rockauto.com a : "1985 Honda Prelude 1.8L 1829cc L4 2x1BBL [ET2]" master cylinder...P/N: RHY MC39705. It has the proper 7/8" diameter bore and the correct line fittings...the stock Si mc is on the left:
...BUT, the question is: Does it fit the stock 1/3g booster w/o modification? The answers is: YES! WE HAVE A WINNER!
The male portion of the mc slips right into place in the stock booster just like the stock Si mc did!
Neato!
The Si booster is smaller than the Integra booster, so, there might be a slight difference in the amt of "assistance" the booster is giving, but, I don't think it will be noticable or be a concern. With the 'teg prop valve and correctly sized mc, the brakes should feel and operate very similar to how they did on the Integra donor car.
Cheers!
For the 1/3g owners choosing to use the 1g Integra disc brakes in the front AND rear, there seems to be some confusion as to what components to use to maintain the same level of operation and feel as in the Integra they came from.
It's recommended that you use a 'teg proportioning valve from the donor car to proportion the fluid correctly to the rear calipers. The 1/3g rear drum brake wheel cylinders require a different volume of fluid and pressure compared to the 'teg calipers, so, OE 1/3g ppv will not work optimally w/the 'teg rear calipers.
In order for the rear brake circuit to have the correct fluid pressure/volume to operate the larger 'teg front calipers and the rear calipers the same way they did in the 'teg, you need a master cylinder with a bore diameter the same as the 'tegs: 7/8" diameter. The trouble is, the 'teg mc does not fit the 1/3g booster. The male portion at the base of the 'teg mc is ~5 mm larger in diameter than the female portion of the 1/3g booster it must fit in. The 2 bolt pattern is correct, but, unless you machine, file, grind or sand the diameter down to match the booster I.D., it not going to fit.
It seems that many people have succesfully machined down the '86-'89 'tegs mc to fit the booster w/no sealing issue whatsoever. Other people aren't so sure about removing material from a mission critical part like a brake mc.
Thanks to an excellent tip from DEIVIONCRX: "i think the key is to use the 85 3bbl carb prelude master clyinder, its the right proporsion and will bolt directly to the stock 1/3g booster"...I ordered one to check it out.
Well...I'll be damn!
It works just as advertised! I ordered from Rockauto.com a : "1985 Honda Prelude 1.8L 1829cc L4 2x1BBL [ET2]" master cylinder...P/N: RHY MC39705. It has the proper 7/8" diameter bore and the correct line fittings...the stock Si mc is on the left:
...BUT, the question is: Does it fit the stock 1/3g booster w/o modification? The answers is: YES! WE HAVE A WINNER!
The male portion of the mc slips right into place in the stock booster just like the stock Si mc did!
Neato!
The Si booster is smaller than the Integra booster, so, there might be a slight difference in the amt of "assistance" the booster is giving, but, I don't think it will be noticable or be a concern. With the 'teg prop valve and correctly sized mc, the brakes should feel and operate very similar to how they did on the Integra donor car.
Cheers!
Edited by kakabox, 05 April 2010 - 11:18 AM.
#345
Posted 05 June 2006 - 10:46 PM
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- civics rule
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thats for that VERY helpful info on the mc.
jsut wish i could turn back time 3 weeks before i had a shop put a new stock master on my car for this swap insted of this one.
also if this prelude is the si model of the year, canada didnt get it so a word to you in canada make sure you order the right one. its not likly to find in a junkyard.
jsut wish i could turn back time 3 weeks before i had a shop put a new stock master on my car for this swap insted of this one.
also if this prelude is the si model of the year, canada didnt get it so a word to you in canada make sure you order the right one. its not likly to find in a junkyard.
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